Recommendations for EFI fuel system

[Gary Lewis]

I think I pointed out in another thread that the stock in-tank pumps provide a minimum of a gallon a minute (spec, 1Qt in 15 seconds)

So 60 gallons an hour seems enough???

255 liters is 67 gallons, so that's not much over the original fuel pump specs. Can you really use more than 60 gallons/hour?

[Littlebeefy]

255 liters is 67 gallons, so that's not much over the original fuel pump specs. Can you really use more than 60 gallons/hour?

The requirement for the Pro-Flo is 57 GPH, so 60 would be sufficient.

@Jim - I appreciate you weighing in here. Where were you able to get the spec flow rate on the OEM pump? I could not find the post you are referencing (sorry but you are a prolific poster).

In trying to weigh out all possible solutions, I am continuing to research this on various forums. The common solution that I am finding is referred to as "pump on a stick". Here's an example of that application: https://www.fullsizebronco.com/threads/fuel-pump-upgrade-125lph-255lph.109519/

(it is worth noting that in the above post, the author states that the stock fuel pump is 125 LPH)

I also saw this post from @Rusty_S85 where he suggested a similar solution for his Holley TBI: http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Fuel-Injection-upgrade-td55603.html

It seems like the most common concern around the various solutions is how they deal with fuel starvation under heavy acceleration. If I understand correctly, the last versions of the pump came encased to keep fuel nearby during acceleration events. Is that correct? And companies like Holley offer a "mat" the feeds the pump that does effectively the same thing? Other than these two solutions for preventing starvation, is there another option? What is most effective?

Any and all feedback is appreciated. I don't know what I don't know.

[85lebaront2]

The requirement for the Pro-Flo is 57 GPH, so 60 would be sufficient.

@Jim - I appreciate you weighing in here. Where were you able to get the spec flow rate on the OEM pump? I could not find the post you are referencing (sorry but you are a prolific poster).

In trying to weigh out all possible solutions, I am continuing to research this on various forums. The common solution that I am finding is referred to as "pump on a stick". Here's an example of that application: https://www.fullsizebronco.com/threads/fuel-pump-upgrade-125lph-255lph.109519/

(it is worth noting that in the above post, the author states that the stock fuel pump is 125 LPH)

I also saw this post from @Rusty_S85 where he suggested a similar solution for his Holley TBI: http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Fuel-Injection-upgrade-td55603.html

It seems like the most common concern around the various solutions is how they deal with fuel starvation under heavy acceleration. If I understand correctly, the last versions of the pump came encased to keep fuel nearby during acceleration events. Is that correct? And companies like Holley offer a "mat" the feeds the pump that does effectively the same thing? Other than these two solutions for preventing starvation, is there another option? What is most effective?

Any and all feedback is appreciated. I don't know what I don't know.

Easiest solution would be to upgrade to a later tank, however, fuel starvation under heavy acceleration I have not run into, and that is with the stock 1990 front tank and pump. Long uphill grades under load and low fuel level in the front tank can run into that as the pump assembly sits near the center of a long (19 gal) tank. There really isn't a good fix for that. Rear tank is less affected by this as it is roughly square with the pump in the middle.

Baffles will help to an extent, particularly in sloshing, but a long uphill run it will still be an issue. A fuel cell, like a race car helps, but needs pickups positioned to be submerged in fuel under any condition.

Some vehicles us a "tub" the pump sits in and the return fuel is used as a "jet" to pickup fuel to fill the tub and the pump draws from the tub. As for pressure and volume, the Chrysler Turbo engine pumps run 55 psi static rising with the boost to, in my case 70 psi and there is a Walbro 255 gph (I think) pump used on them for extreme systems (20 + psi boost).

[Littlebeefy]

Easiest solution would be to upgrade to a later tank, however, fuel starvation under heavy acceleration I have not run into, and that is with the stock 1990 front tank and pump. Long uphill grades under load and low fuel level in the front tank can run into that as the pump assembly sits near the center of a long (19 gal) tank. There really isn't a good fix for that. Rear tank is less affected by this as it is roughly square with the pump in the middle.

Baffles will help to an extent, particularly in sloshing, but a long uphill run it will still be an issue. A fuel cell, like a race car helps, but needs pickups positioned to be submerged in fuel under any condition.

Some vehicles us a "tub" the pump sits in and the return fuel is used as a "jet" to pickup fuel to fill the tub and the pump draws from the tub. As for pressure and volume, the Chrysler Turbo engine pumps run 55 psi static rising with the boost to, in my case 70 psi and there is a Walbro 255 gph (I think) pump used on them for extreme systems (20 + psi boost).

So I've done significantly more research across the web, and there are nearly an infinite number of ways to skin this cat. In my case, with an 84 and no return as well as the smaller fuel tank, there simply isn't any reason to try to reuse any of what I've got.

If I start with the assumption that I have to buy a new hanger, it just seems like it makes more sense to buy the 85-86 unit since it has a return and it has a float that doesn't require a $100 gauge converter to work and it's significantly cheaper than the 90s unit. Most importantly, it seems like I can easily adapt it for a Walbro 255 with a Hydramat and do a custom pump on a stick solution. See what I mean:

So Gary et al, I'm wondering, even though you suggested the 90s units, is there a fundamental reason that I can't use the 85-86 to build a high pressure pump on a stick with a return? I know I'd have to run some submersible tubing since it's expecting a side outlet pump and I'd need to extend the return to the bottom of the tank, but is there anything stopping me from doing it that way?

[Gary Lewis]

So I've done significantly more research across the web, and there are nearly an infinite number of ways to skin this cat. In my case, with an 84 and no return as well as the smaller fuel tank, there simply isn't any reason to try to reuse any of what I've got.

If I start with the assumption that I have to buy a new hanger, it just seems like it makes more sense to buy the 85-86 unit since it has a return and it has a float that doesn't require a $100 gauge converter to work and it's significantly cheaper than the 90s unit. Most importantly, it seems like I can easily adapt it for a Walbro 255 with a Hydramat and do a custom pump on a stick solution. See what I mean:

So Gary et al, I'm wondering, even though you suggested the 90s units, is there a fundamental reason that I can't use the 85-86 to build a high pressure pump on a stick with a return? I know I'd have to run some submersible tubing since it's expecting a side outlet pump and I'd need to extend the return to the bottom of the tank, but is there anything stopping me from doing it that way?

Chad - I don't see any reason you can't do it that way.

My reason for going with the later FDM's was because I'm going with 90's EFI later and wanted a "stock" system to make it easier for my offspring to support. But you aren't worried about that, so it should work fine for you.

[ArdWrknTrk]

So I've done significantly more research across the web, and there are nearly an infinite number of ways to skin this cat. In my case, with an 84 and no return as well as the smaller fuel tank, there simply isn't any reason to try to reuse any of what I've got.

If I start with the assumption that I have to buy a new hanger, it just seems like it makes more sense to buy the 85-86 unit since it has a return and it has a float that doesn't require a $100 gauge converter to work and it's significantly cheaper than the 90s unit. Most importantly, it seems like I can easily adapt it for a Walbro 255 with a Hydramat and do a custom pump on a stick solution. See what I mean:

So Gary et al, I'm wondering, even though you suggested the 90s units, is there a fundamental reason that I can't use the 85-86 to build a high pressure pump on a stick with a return? I know I'd have to run some submersible tubing since it's expecting a side outlet pump and I'd need to extend the return to the bottom of the tank, but is there anything stopping me from doing it that way?

That seems a great solution Chad!

The sender and fuel lines are plug 'n play, and you can easily adapt the Walbro pump + Hydramat to keep the pump from starving.

[Littlebeefy]

That seems a great solution Chad!

The sender and fuel lines are plug 'n play, and you can easily adapt the Walbro pump + Hydramat to keep the pump from starving.

So here is my solution realized. I took the 85-86 hanger that JBG sells and cut off the pick-up tube just above the bend. That was the only modification I had to make to the hanger and I imagine you could do the same with any unit regardless of where you got it or who made it.

The biggest problem I had was staying within the 2" limitation of the hole cut for the hanger. I am using an Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump with an offset outlet and inlet and a 39mm body. at 2 I'm dealing with 50.8mm to work with total, so that leaves only 11.8mm to work with along side the pump.

2 important "discoveries" I found in actually constructing and fitting: 1) a standard 1.75" hose clamp fitting will usually have a "worm screw and socket" that sticks out further than 11.8mm, and 2) the lowest part of the pump has to be high enough up that the sender float can be completely inserted in the hole before the pump goes in.

To get around the worm screw problem, I found SS zip ties. These things are GAME CHANGERS. Y'all may know about these already, but to me it was a fabulous discovery. They are easy to snug on and they only stick out a few millimeters. I used the zip ties to hold on 2 M3 SS threaded rods which I clamped on to the hanger. By keeping the rods just about straight, the pump inlet will be moved slightly forward in the tank by a couple of inches. In my case that's preferable since I'm using a 15x3 Hydramat with an offset connector so it should sit right in the middle.

The length of the pump is such that the hose between the pump and the hanger only has to be about 1.5-1.75 inches long and can be completely straight. Also, the M3 rods are sturdy enough, but if you put a hose clamp around the rods and hose, you can easily bend the rods to effectively make the unit "shorter" and move the inlet a little more towards the center.

[ArdWrknTrk]

So here is my solution realized. I took the 85-86 hanger that JBG sells and cut off the pick-up tube just above the bend. That was the only modification I had to make to the hanger and I imagine you could do the same with any unit regardless of where you got it or who made it.

The biggest problem I had was staying within the 2" limitation of the hole cut for the hanger. I am using an Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump with an offset outlet and inlet and a 39mm body. at 2 I'm dealing with 50.8mm to work with total, so that leaves only 11.8mm to work with along side the pump.

2 important "discoveries" I found in actually constructing and fitting: 1) a standard 1.75" hose clamp fitting will usually have a "worm screw and socket" that sticks out further than 11.8mm, and 2) the lowest part of the pump has to be high enough up that the sender float can be completely inserted in the hole before the pump goes in.

To get around the worm screw problem, I found SS zip ties. These things are GAME CHANGERS. Y'all may know about these already, but to me it was a fabulous discovery. They are easy to snug on and they only stick out a few millimeters. I used the zip ties to hold on 2 M3 SS threaded rods which I clamped on to the hanger. By keeping the rods just about straight, the pump inlet will be moved slightly forward in the tank by a couple of inches. In my case that's preferable since I'm using a 15x3 Hydramat with an offset connector so it should sit right in the middle.

The length of the pump is such that the hose between the pump and the hanger only has to be about 1.5-1.75 inches long and can be completely straight. Also, the M3 rods are sturdy enough, but if you put a hose clamp around the rods and hose, you can easily bend the rods to effectively make the unit "shorter" and move the inlet a little more towards the center.

Those stainless clamps are handy, and we used to use them to hold heat shields on dirt bike pipes.

Safety wire (and pliers) would do the same thing.

I have a pound of three sizes .020, .032, .040" in my box.

Safety wire pliers used to be a big expense (my Blue Point were over $100 40 years ago)

But I saw a bigger pair in Horrid Fate last week.

Anyone that has to pass tech or has "mission critical" fasteners should own some (and practice with them)

I know a few here (like Clay, the new owner of Gary's Rusty, and John 'Machspeed)' come from military avation backgrounds...

[Gary Lewis]

So here is my solution realized. I took the 85-86 hanger that JBG sells and cut off the pick-up tube just above the bend. That was the only modification I had to make to the hanger and I imagine you could do the same with any unit regardless of where you got it or who made it.

The biggest problem I had was staying within the 2" limitation of the hole cut for the hanger. I am using an Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump with an offset outlet and inlet and a 39mm body. at 2 I'm dealing with 50.8mm to work with total, so that leaves only 11.8mm to work with along side the pump.

2 important "discoveries" I found in actually constructing and fitting: 1) a standard 1.75" hose clamp fitting will usually have a "worm screw and socket" that sticks out further than 11.8mm, and 2) the lowest part of the pump has to be high enough up that the sender float can be completely inserted in the hole before the pump goes in.

To get around the worm screw problem, I found SS zip ties. These things are GAME CHANGERS. Y'all may know about these already, but to me it was a fabulous discovery. They are easy to snug on and they only stick out a few millimeters. I used the zip ties to hold on 2 M3 SS threaded rods which I clamped on to the hanger. By keeping the rods just about straight, the pump inlet will be moved slightly forward in the tank by a couple of inches. In my case that's preferable since I'm using a 15x3 Hydramat with an offset connector so it should sit right in the middle.

The length of the pump is such that the hose between the pump and the hanger only has to be about 1.5-1.75 inches long and can be completely straight. Also, the M3 rods are sturdy enough, but if you put a hose clamp around the rods and hose, you can easily bend the rods to effectively make the unit "shorter" and move the inlet a little more towards the center.

Well done! I like those SS zip ties. But I've never found them. Where did you find them?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Well done! I like those SS zip ties. But I've never found them. Where did you find them?

They are Prime

https://www.amazon.com/100pcs-Stainless-Coated-Locking-11-8inch/dp/B07XXNJJ6R/ref=asc_df_B07XXNJJ6R/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385184478202&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9755357486575574977&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003439&hvtargid=pla-829429952829&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=77282054623&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385184478202&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9755357486575574977&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003439&hvtargid=pla-829429952829

Like I said, used for header wrap and heat shields.