Wrecked my TTB

[Nothing Special]

.... I did hear the TrueTrac is better in a mud/dirt/sand situation than a straight open diff though.

Definitely! Any time both tires get some traction a TrueTrac won't let the tire with the least traction be such a limiting factor. It's just when there's a LARGE difference in traction between the two sides where the TrueTrac tends to fall short.

The driveway at my folks cabin is a little steep and is usually covered in leaves. When the leaves are wet I usually needed 4WD to get up with the old worn out clutch type limited slip (almost an open diff). I can almost always get up in 2WD with the TrueTrac.

[Gary Lewis]

.... You are always going to have problems with a true locker if you have traction.

Any time you are turning, each front wheel is traveling a different arc, with much different distances.

This is why we have differentials to begin with!

So, you found the weak link in your setup.

Probably a lot better than splitting your carrier.

What part do you want to fail?

Because geometry and physics say you can't have both axles turning together.

I was thinking more about this thread and realized that I hadn't commented on this. Stevenscoffee didn't say what type of locker he has. But if it's an automatic locker it will not cause binding. In fact, an automatic locker in a front axle will actually reduce the amount of binding you have when turning in 4WD.

Most differentials are really misnamed. "Limited slip" differentials offer a limited amount of grip, while doing nothing to limit slip once the slip starts. And "automatic locking" differentials actually are better considered "automatic unlocking" differentials.

Automatic (un)lockers will always freely allow one tire to go faster than the ring gear. So when you are going around a corner it will automatically unlock and let the axles turn separately. And this will happen freely whether you are coasting or accelerating. The only way you can keep it from disengaging is to spin the inside tire. Then the ring gear catches up to the outside tire. With the outside tire not going faster it won't unlock. But it's not like people often say who think you need to get off the power to allow an automatic locker to unlock. It knows nothing about power, all it knows is relative speed. So any time one tire wants to go faster than the ring gear it can. Period.

When you go around a curve the front tires track wider than the rear, so the front tires need to turn faster than the rear. But when yo are in 4WD the transfer case (that has no differential) won't allow that so you get some bind. But an open front diff will allow the inside tire to slow down a little while the outside tire goes a little faster. An automatic locker on the other hand won't let the inside tire slow down, although it will allow the outside tire to speed up. So the average speed of the front tires is faster in a curve with an automatic locker. That's why you'll actually get less bind turning with an automatic locker in the front than with an open diff.

That said, open diffs protect axles because they will only send as much torque through either axle as the tire with the least traction will support. That can be considerably less torque than the tire with the most traction can support, and a locker will send that higher amount to that tire. That's why it's a lot easier to break axles with a locker.

And I've been talking here like I'm a big fan of automatic lockers in a front axle. I'm not, at least in all situations. I think an automatic locker in the front could well be the most effective choice for most serious fourwheeling (better than other types of diffs in the front and better than any type of diff in the rear). But the road manners are a lot worse than with an automatic locker in the rear. At low speeds it's just very significant torque steer as the diff makes the tires try pretty hard to straighten themselves out when you are turning or will make it pull toward the tire with the least traction if there's a significant traction difference. But at higher speeds that torque steer can be deadly. The first time I changed lanes on a snowy freeway in 4WD with an automatic locker in the front, when the left front tire hit the snow between the lanes the truck pulled so abruptly to the left that it had moved 10 feet before I was able to catch and correct it. Fortunately I was trying to change into that lane and knew it was empty. The second (and last) time I changed lanes with the front locker I thought I was ready. I back off the gas quite a bit (just enough to keep speed, not accelerating at all) and the truck only jumped over about 5 feet. I shifted into 2WD at that point.

This is deep! I've read it a couple of times and I keep coming back to figure it out. Thanks, Bob!

[Nothing Special]

This is deep! I've read it a couple of times and I keep coming back to figure it out. Thanks, Bob!

You're welcome! I've spent a lot of time thinking about lockers and discussing them with others. I'm a mechanical engineer who's designed and supported a manufacturing line for clutches, as well as being a life-long fourwheeler, so they're really in my wheelhouse. I really enjoy getting in conversations like this!

[Gary Lewis]

You're welcome! I've spent a lot of time thinking about lockers and discussing them with others. I'm a mechanical engineer who's designed and supported a manufacturing line for clutches, as well as being a life-long fourwheeler, so they're really in my wheelhouse. I really enjoy getting in conversations like this!

I particularly like the "(un)locker" description. Makes sense to me.

And after you explained your experiences with one in the front I'll stay with my e-locker, thank you very much!

[ArdWrknTrk]

.... You are always going to have problems with a true locker if you have traction.

Any time you are turning, each front wheel is traveling a different arc, with much different distances.

This is why we have differentials to begin with!

So, you found the weak link in your setup.

Probably a lot better than splitting your carrier.

What part do you want to fail?

Because geometry and physics say you can't have both axles turning together.

I was thinking more about this thread and realized that I hadn't commented on this. Stevenscoffee didn't say what type of locker he has. But if it's an automatic locker it will not cause binding. In fact, an automatic locker in a front axle will actually reduce the amount of binding you have when turning in 4WD.

Most differentials are really misnamed. "Limited slip" differentials offer a limited amount of grip, while doing nothing to limit slip once the slip starts. And "automatic locking" differentials actually are better considered "automatic unlocking" differentials.

Automatic (un)lockers will always freely allow one tire to go faster than the ring gear. So when you are going around a corner it will automatically unlock and let the axles turn separately. And this will happen freely whether you are coasting or accelerating. The only way you can keep it from disengaging is to spin the inside tire. Then the ring gear catches up to the outside tire. With the outside tire not going faster it won't unlock. But it's not like people often say who think you need to get off the power to allow an automatic locker to unlock. It knows nothing about power, all it knows is relative speed. So any time one tire wants to go faster than the ring gear it can. Period.

When you go around a curve the front tires track wider than the rear, so the front tires need to turn faster than the rear. But when yo are in 4WD the transfer case (that has no differential) won't allow that so you get some bind. But an open front diff will allow the inside tire to slow down a little while the outside tire goes a little faster. An automatic locker on the other hand won't let the inside tire slow down, although it will allow the outside tire to speed up. So the average speed of the front tires is faster in a curve with an automatic locker. That's why you'll actually get less bind turning with an automatic locker in the front than with an open diff.

That said, open diffs protect axles because they will only send as much torque through either axle as the tire with the least traction will support. That can be considerably less torque than the tire with the most traction can support, and a locker will send that higher amount to that tire. That's why it's a lot easier to break axles with a locker.

And I've been talking here like I'm a big fan of automatic lockers in a front axle. I'm not, at least in all situations. I think an automatic locker in the front could well be the most effective choice for most serious fourwheeling (better than other types of diffs in the front and better than any type of diff in the rear). But the road manners are a lot worse than with an automatic locker in the rear. At low speeds it's just very significant torque steer as the diff makes the tires try pretty hard to straighten themselves out when you are turning or will make it pull toward the tire with the least traction if there's a significant traction difference. But at higher speeds that torque steer can be deadly. The first time I changed lanes on a snowy freeway in 4WD with an automatic locker in the front, when the left front tire hit the snow between the lanes the truck pulled so abruptly to the left that it had moved 10 feet before I was able to catch and correct it. Fortunately I was trying to change into that lane and knew it was empty. The second (and last) time I changed lanes with the front locker I thought I was ready. I back off the gas quite a bit (just enough to keep speed, not accelerating at all) and the truck only jumped over about 5 feet. I shifted into 2WD at that point.

I appreciate the commentary, Bob.

I honestly don't think of anything (Torsen, trutrac, automatic, whatever) as a 'locker'

If you've got a spool.....

So, maybe I'm all wet here.

I never asked, and we never heard.

I have seen welded spiders and lunchboxes do some damage though.

Maybe it wasn't a TTB trying to be a live axle that ripped Stephen's yoke open.

 

[Nothing Special]

I appreciate the commentary, Bob.

I honestly don't think of anything (Torsen, trutrac, automatic, whatever) as a 'locker'

If you've got a spool.....

"It's just semantics", but since "semantics" is defined as "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning", and since the entire point of communication is to communicate meaning, "it's just semantics" is equivalent to saying "it's just the entire point."

Jim, I'm not saying that to put you down in any way, but just to explain why I am a little picky about word choice.

As I said above, "automatic lockers" are better thought of as "automatic unlockers." Along the same line, "selectable lockers" might be thought of as "selectable unlockers." What both of them do is "lock" the two sides together with no possibility of the tires turning different speeds (much like a spool), but unlike a spool they will also unlock to allow the differential to not bind things up. An automatic locker will ALWAYS unlock (automatically) to prevent that bind, while with a selectable you need to tell it. So a selectable locker will bind things up if you don't disengage it.

So things like a Detroit (Locker), OX, ARB, and all of the "lunchbox lockers" are best thought of as lockers. They don't allow for any slip, but they will disengage (in one of two very different ways, automatic or selectable).

On the other hand, limited slip differentials never really lock. They will always allow slip if a big enough load is applied. So people talk about a (Detroit) TrueTrac, a Torsen, a PowrLok, a Traction Lock or a Posi as a "locker," but that's wrong and misleading (and yes, the names "PowrLok" and "Traction Lock" don't help dispel the confusion).

And while I'm there, "Detroit" is sort of a brand name owned by Eaton. Under that brand are (at least) the Detroit Locker (often called just "a Detroit") and the Detroit TrueTrac (usually called just "TrueTrac"). But I think some people see "Detroit TrueTrac" and since they know that a "Detroit" is a locker, they think the Detroit TrueTrac is a locker. But it's not.

And "Posi" is often used an the generic word for a clutch-type limited slip, or for any limited slip, or worse yet, for any limited slip or locker. "Posi" is Eaton's brand name for their clutch-type limited slip, much like "Kleenex" is Kimberly-Clark's brand name for facial tissue. Just like Puffs facial tissue, any brand of toilet tissue, or worse yet, any thing made of paper aren't Kleenex, Traction Locks, TrueTracs and lockers aren't "Posi's".

So, maybe I'm all wet here.

I never asked, and we never heard.

I have seen welded spiders and lunchboxes do some damage though.

Maybe it wasn't a TTB trying to be a live axle that ripped Stephen's yoke open.

You're definitely not all wet (maybe just a little damp? ). If he has a selectable locker then it might have been a "live axle" that broke his U-joint. But if it was an automatic locker, then bind during turning couldn't have been the cause.

And even if he does have a selectable locker, or even a spool for that matter, it's likely not the torque from the bind in a turn that broke it. Like with an open diff under power, the bind torque from a spool is limited to the torque required to slip the tire with the least traction. What breaks most spool or locker equipped axles is engine torque (multiplied by the trans, transfer case and axle gearing). When you are on the power too much and one tire gets heavily loaded, that's the recipe for axle breakage. Open diffs ad limited slips will limit that torque load based on what the other tire will support, but spools and lockers can give it all to the one side.

[Rusty_S85]

I appreciate the commentary, Bob.

I honestly don't think of anything (Torsen, trutrac, automatic, whatever) as a 'locker'

If you've got a spool.....

"It's just semantics", but since "semantics" is defined as "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning", and since the entire point of communication is to communicate meaning, "it's just semantics" is equivalent to saying "it's just the entire point."

Jim, I'm not saying that to put you down in any way, but just to explain why I am a little picky about word choice.

As I said above, "automatic lockers" are better thought of as "automatic unlockers." Along the same line, "selectable lockers" might be thought of as "selectable unlockers." What both of them do is "lock" the two sides together with no possibility of the tires turning different speeds (much like a spool), but unlike a spool they will also unlock to allow the differential to not bind things up. An automatic locker will ALWAYS unlock (automatically) to prevent that bind, while with a selectable you need to tell it. So a selectable locker will bind things up if you don't disengage it.

So things like a Detroit (Locker), OX, ARB, and all of the "lunchbox lockers" are best thought of as lockers. They don't allow for any slip, but they will disengage (in one of two very different ways, automatic or selectable).

On the other hand, limited slip differentials never really lock. They will always allow slip if a big enough load is applied. So people talk about a (Detroit) TrueTrac, a Torsen, a PowrLok, a Traction Lock or a Posi as a "locker," but that's wrong and misleading (and yes, the names "PowrLok" and "Traction Lock" don't help dispel the confusion).

And while I'm there, "Detroit" is sort of a brand name owned by Eaton. Under that brand are (at least) the Detroit Locker (often called just "a Detroit") and the Detroit TrueTrac (usually called just "TrueTrac"). But I think some people see "Detroit TrueTrac" and since they know that a "Detroit" is a locker, they think the Detroit TrueTrac is a locker. But it's not.

And "Posi" is often used an the generic word for a clutch-type limited slip, or for any limited slip, or worse yet, for any limited slip or locker. "Posi" is Eaton's brand name for their clutch-type limited slip, much like "Kleenex" is Kimberly-Clark's brand name for facial tissue. Just like Puffs facial tissue, any brand of toilet tissue, or worse yet, any thing made of paper aren't Kleenex, Traction Locks, TrueTracs and lockers aren't "Posi's".

So, maybe I'm all wet here.

I never asked, and we never heard.

I have seen welded spiders and lunchboxes do some damage though.

Maybe it wasn't a TTB trying to be a live axle that ripped Stephen's yoke open.

You're definitely not all wet (maybe just a little damp? ). If he has a selectable locker then it might have been a "live axle" that broke his U-joint. But if it was an automatic locker, then bind during turning couldn't have been the cause.

And even if he does have a selectable locker, or even a spool for that matter, it's likely not the torque from the bind in a turn that broke it. Like with an open diff under power, the bind torque from a spool is limited to the torque required to slip the tire with the least traction. What breaks most spool or locker equipped axles is engine torque (multiplied by the trans, transfer case and axle gearing). When you are on the power too much and one tire gets heavily loaded, that's the recipe for axle breakage. Open diffs ad limited slips will limit that torque load based on what the other tire will support, but spools and lockers can give it all to the one side.

and when you say automatic unlocker are you talking about the ratcheting lockers that as you go around a corner the teeth are supposed to slide out slightly and slip or ratchet? or are you refering to something like a limited slip? I assume you are refering to the ratcheting style of lockers but just want to make sure I am understanding right.

I personally dont think a locker of any kind ratcheting or spool belongs on a vehicle that is driven on the street. It can be unnerving with a tight limited slip with the traditional clutches, we have a camaro at work with a LS transplant and 4L60E and that thing has such a tight limited slip just trying to drive it around a corner it makes so much noise you dont know if the car is falling apart or not.

For me personally, I would just stick with a open differential for my truck but I am running 31x10.50-15 tires all around but my 306 I am building should make some where around 380hp - 395hp and around 400 - 415trq. I know with an open differential I wouldnt really break anything but I also dont want to smoke one expensive KO2 tire either. A locker would probably be bad news for my U joints, I dont think my C6 or 9" axle would be a problem in failing with 400 - 415 trq even with torque multiplication of the hughes tow converter or the E4OD planetary gear set upgrade. But I question the U-joints how ever and I wouldnt want to be going down the highway doing 75 mph and have something like what happened to the original poster and have a U joint shatter. Ive seen what happens when a failure like that happens at highway speeds, it will smash the gas tank, it will destroy the underside of the cab and bed and be a wrecking ball for anything in its way till the axle either stops spinning or is spit out the rear of the truck.

[Nothing Special]

and when you say automatic unlocker are you talking about the ratcheting lockers that as you go around a corner the teeth are supposed to slide out slightly and slip or ratchet? or are you refering to something like a limited slip? I assume you are refering to the ratcheting style of lockers but just want to make sure I am understanding right....

Yes, I'm talking about the ratcheting kind of lockers. Detroit Locker, Yukon Grizzly, LockRight, Aussie Locker, Spartan Locker, that type. Limited slips aren't lockers and I don't use the term "locker" referring to them.

I personally dont think a locker of any kind ratcheting or spool belongs on a vehicle that is driven on the street. It can be unnerving with a tight limited slip with the traditional clutches, we have a camaro at work with a LS transplant and 4L60E and that thing has such a tight limited slip just trying to drive it around a corner it makes so much noise you dont know if the car is falling apart or not....

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and as long as you're talking about your own vehicle, my opinion (or anyone else's) doesn't carry any weight.

But an automatic locker is nothing like a tight clutch-type limited slip. A clutch-type limited slip ties the two sides together, just like a spool, until the torque exceeds the slip torque of the clutches. If it's set up tight enough it is effectively a spool. That's almost always a problem on ice (even the limited slip in my truck that was too worn out to start on the top of that hill was too tight for coasting around a corner on ice). But if it's set up really tight it can even act like a spool on the street.

But like I've been saying, an automatic locker will always freely allow one tire to turn faster, so you never get that kind of bind going around a corner with one. You might hear a clicking from the clutches, but there won't be any bind.

That's not to say automatic lockers have good street manners. Lot's of people don't like them on the street, and as I said earlier, I don't really want one in a truck that I'm letting my kids drive. But their bad manners have nothing to do with the bad manners of a tight limited slip.

When you go around a corner the locker unlocks and lets the outside tire go faster. But that means that it's only driving the inside tire. That gives noticeable torque steer which some people find too annoying.

Having one wheel drive also means that it's really easy to spin that tire if you get on the power too much (and "too much" might be really just a little, depending on conditions). When you do spin the inside tire it goes faster (duh!) and it will soon be going the same speed as the outside tire. Once the outside tire isn't trying to go faster than the inside tire the locker will reengage, and there's no slip, so it will reengage abruptly. That sudden load can easily break the outside tire loose as well, making the back end kick out pretty abruptly. That's the bad manners that make me less willing to have my kids or wife driving it, especially in the snow.

But automatic lockers are completely predictable if you understand them. And if you are able and willing to adjust your driving to manage the lockers quirks they aren't bad on the street (personally I think they are much easy to live with than a clutch-type limited slip). But not everyone is able to drive to a locker, and even fewer are willing to. So they definitely aren't for everyone.

For me personally, I would just stick with a open differential for my truck but I am running 31x10.50-15 tires all around but my 306 I am building should make some where around 380hp - 395hp and around 400 - 415trq. I know with an open differential I wouldnt really break anything but I also dont want to smoke one expensive KO2 tire either...

An open diff really isn't much worse than any traction-aiding diff in most circumstances. An open diff will give you twice as much force pushing you forward as the tire with the least traction is capable of providing. The best that any traction-aiding diff can add is the additional force that the tire with the most traction can provide. And in most situations that difference isn't huge.

Where the difference is significant is in things like rock crawling where one tire might be in the air, or on ice when one tire is on pavement, or in drag racing (and from what you said above I'd group your needs with that) where the driveshaft torque tries to lift the right rear tire. It's places like that where limited slips, lockers and spools can provide enough benefit to outweigh their downsides.

... A locker would probably be bad news for my U joints, I dont think my C6 or 9" axle would be a problem in failing with 400 - 415 trq even with torque multiplication of the hughes tow converter or the E4OD planetary gear set upgrade. But I question the U-joints how ever and I wouldnt want to be going down the highway doing 75 mph and have something like what happened to the original poster and have a U joint shatter. Ive seen what happens when a failure like that happens at highway speeds, it will smash the gas tank, it will destroy the underside of the cab and bed and be a wrecking ball for anything in its way till the axle either stops spinning or is spit out the rear of the truck.

A rear locker wouldn't be particularly bad for your U-joints. You are much more likely to break an axle shaft with a locker than you are anything in the driveshaft. It's just that the U-joints in front axles are the weak link there. So breaking an axle U-joint with a front locker is a pretty common thing.

And locker-induced failures aren't likely to happen on the freeway. They are generally due to torque overloads, and that can't really happen at 75 mph. Instead they'll happen when you dump the clutch, or start bouncing the truck trying to climb up a rock.

So I don't think you should be too worried about a rear locker for those safety concerns. But I'm still not saying that you'll like a locker. I think a TrueTrac sounds like a really good fit for that application.

 

[FuzzFace2]

and when you say automatic unlocker are you talking about the ratcheting lockers that as you go around a corner the teeth are supposed to slide out slightly and slip or ratchet? or are you refering to something like a limited slip? I assume you are refering to the ratcheting style of lockers but just want to make sure I am understanding right....

Yes, I'm talking about the ratcheting kind of lockers. Detroit Locker, Yukon Grizzly, LockRight, Aussie Locker, Spartan Locker, that type. Limited slips aren't lockers and I don't use the term "locker" referring to them.

I personally dont think a locker of any kind ratcheting or spool belongs on a vehicle that is driven on the street. It can be unnerving with a tight limited slip with the traditional clutches, we have a camaro at work with a LS transplant and 4L60E and that thing has such a tight limited slip just trying to drive it around a corner it makes so much noise you dont know if the car is falling apart or not....

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and as long as you're talking about your own vehicle, my opinion (or anyone else's) doesn't carry any weight.

But an automatic locker is nothing like a tight clutch-type limited slip. A clutch-type limited slip ties the two sides together, just like a spool, until the torque exceeds the slip torque of the clutches. If it's set up tight enough it is effectively a spool. That's almost always a problem on ice (even the limited slip in my truck that was too worn out to start on the top of that hill was too tight for coasting around a corner on ice). But if it's set up really tight it can even act like a spool on the street.

But like I've been saying, an automatic locker will always freely allow one tire to turn faster, so you never get that kind of bind going around a corner with one. You might hear a clicking from the clutches, but there won't be any bind.

That's not to say automatic lockers have good street manners. Lot's of people don't like them on the street, and as I said earlier, I don't really want one in a truck that I'm letting my kids drive. But their bad manners have nothing to do with the bad manners of a tight limited slip.

When you go around a corner the locker unlocks and lets the outside tire go faster. But that means that it's only driving the inside tire. That gives noticeable torque steer which some people find too annoying.

Having one wheel drive also means that it's really easy to spin that tire if you get on the power too much (and "too much" might be really just a little, depending on conditions). When you do spin the inside tire it goes faster (duh!) and it will soon be going the same speed as the outside tire. Once the outside tire isn't trying to go faster than the inside tire the locker will reengage, and there's no slip, so it will reengage abruptly. That sudden load can easily break the outside tire loose as well, making the back end kick out pretty abruptly. That's the bad manners that make me less willing to have my kids or wife driving it, especially in the snow.

But automatic lockers are completely predictable if you understand them. And if you are able and willing to adjust your driving to manage the lockers quirks they aren't bad on the street (personally I think they are much easy to live with than a clutch-type limited slip). But not everyone is able to drive to a locker, and even fewer are willing to. So they definitely aren't for everyone.

For me personally, I would just stick with a open differential for my truck but I am running 31x10.50-15 tires all around but my 306 I am building should make some where around 380hp - 395hp and around 400 - 415trq. I know with an open differential I wouldnt really break anything but I also dont want to smoke one expensive KO2 tire either...

An open diff really isn't much worse than any traction-aiding diff in most circumstances. An open diff will give you twice as much force pushing you forward as the tire with the least traction is capable of providing. The best that any traction-aiding diff can add is the additional force that the tire with the most traction can provide. And in most situations that difference isn't huge.

Where the difference is significant is in things like rock crawling where one tire might be in the air, or on ice when one tire is on pavement, or in drag racing (and from what you said above I'd group your needs with that) where the driveshaft torque tries to lift the right rear tire. It's places like that where limited slips, lockers and spools can provide enough benefit to outweigh their downsides.

... A locker would probably be bad news for my U joints, I dont think my C6 or 9" axle would be a problem in failing with 400 - 415 trq even with torque multiplication of the hughes tow converter or the E4OD planetary gear set upgrade. But I question the U-joints how ever and I wouldnt want to be going down the highway doing 75 mph and have something like what happened to the original poster and have a U joint shatter. Ive seen what happens when a failure like that happens at highway speeds, it will smash the gas tank, it will destroy the underside of the cab and bed and be a wrecking ball for anything in its way till the axle either stops spinning or is spit out the rear of the truck.

A rear locker wouldn't be particularly bad for your U-joints. You are much more likely to break an axle shaft with a locker than you are anything in the driveshaft. It's just that the U-joints in front axles are the weak link there. So breaking an axle U-joint with a front locker is a pretty common thing.

And locker-induced failures aren't likely to happen on the freeway. They are generally due to torque overloads, and that can't really happen at 75 mph. Instead they'll happen when you dump the clutch, or start bouncing the truck trying to climb up a rock.

So I don't think you should be too worried about a rear locker for those safety concerns. But I'm still not saying that you'll like a locker. I think a TrueTrac sounds like a really good fit for that application.

I have had LS in both my 86 K5 Blazer and my 02 Durango in the snow and even pulling a trailer (Blazer) and never did I feel un easy on how the trucks were going to react even around corners.

I have a Lock Right locker in my 75 factory v8 AMC Gremlin, 92" wheel base car.

I have only tried moving it in snow because I had to and even with both back wheel "locked" it was not moving but I think that was mostly because no weight over the rear drive wheels.

Driving when dry out any "little" power around a corner would lock and the tires would make noise.

That's not cool with the police around.

I have driven the car in the rain and that was a lot of fun "not" if you were not ready for it around a corner. Ken Brock had nothing on me in the rain

I also run a Detroit Locker in my 70 AMC Javelin drag car and has worked great in the car.

I figured if I ever went to a spool in the drag car I would use the DL in my 70 Javelin street car.

A lot of weather to run a locker or a LS for me had to do with what I was going to do with the car or truck and ease to install.

The 86 & 02 trucks were factory installs, the Lock Right I installed as was the Detroit Locker, both for drag racing at the time.

Dave ----

[Rusty_S85]

Yes, I'm talking about the ratcheting kind of lockers. Detroit Locker, Yukon Grizzly, LockRight, Aussie Locker, Spartan Locker, that type. Limited slips aren't lockers and I don't use the term "locker" referring to them.

Thats what I thought but I wanted to make sure.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and as long as you're talking about your own vehicle, my opinion (or anyone else's) doesn't carry any weight.

But an automatic locker is nothing like a tight clutch-type limited slip. A clutch-type limited slip ties the two sides together, just like a spool, until the torque exceeds the slip torque of the clutches. If it's set up tight enough it is effectively a spool. That's almost always a problem on ice (even the limited slip in my truck that was too worn out to start on the top of that hill was too tight for coasting around a corner on ice). But if it's set up really tight it can even act like a spool on the street.

But like I've been saying, an automatic locker will always freely allow one tire to turn faster, so you never get that kind of bind going around a corner with one. You might hear a clicking from the clutches, but there won't be any bind.

That's not to say automatic lockers have good street manners. Lot's of people don't like them on the street, and as I said earlier, I don't really want one in a truck that I'm letting my kids drive. But their bad manners have nothing to do with the bad manners of a tight limited slip.

When you go around a corner the locker unlocks and lets the outside tire go faster. But that means that it's only driving the inside tire. That gives noticeable torque steer which some people find too annoying.

Having one wheel drive also means that it's really easy to spin that tire if you get on the power too much (and "too much" might be really just a little, depending on conditions). When you do spin the inside tire it goes faster (duh!) and it will soon be going the same speed as the outside tire. Once the outside tire isn't trying to go faster than the inside tire the locker will reengage, and there's no slip, so it will reengage abruptly. That sudden load can easily break the outside tire loose as well, making the back end kick out pretty abruptly. That's the bad manners that make me less willing to have my kids or wife driving it, especially in the snow.

But automatic lockers are completely predictable if you understand them. And if you are able and willing to adjust your driving to manage the lockers quirks they aren't bad on the street (personally I think they are much easy to live with than a clutch-type limited slip). But not everyone is able to drive to a locker, and even fewer are willing to. So they definitely aren't for everyone.

It is mainly the mannerism that I am talking about why I feel that they dont belong on the street. Doesnt mean people cant run it if thats what they want. Sort of like people that run real hot cams in their cars that results in very little vacuum for power brakes as well as bad mannerism on the street but people still use them.

I think the majority of people out there wouldnt like a locker period even an automatic style locker. Most people today are spoiled with modern technology.

An open diff really isn't much worse than any traction-aiding diff in most circumstances. An open diff will give you twice as much force pushing you forward as the tire with the least traction is capable of providing. The best that any traction-aiding diff can add is the additional force that the tire with the most traction can provide. And in most situations that difference isn't huge.

Where the difference is significant is in things like rock crawling where one tire might be in the air, or on ice when one tire is on pavement, or in drag racing (and from what you said above I'd group your needs with that) where the driveshaft torque tries to lift the right rear tire. It's places like that where limited slips, lockers and spools can provide enough benefit to outweigh their downsides.

Of course, the open diff is more of a safe bet when you are unsure of a diff style. I actually settled on the TrueTrac some 6 years ago and considering I am buying a Currie third member to change my gear ratio so all I have to do is pull my axles out a bit pull the OE third member and throw in the new one and be back on the road vs having my OE third member rebuilt, I have an option of a OE limited slip or the truetrac. Price wise when I last looked they were both about $1,200 if I remember right. I figure it would be better for me with my limited off road use but should provide better street mannerism for me especially with me driving on winding back country roads at 60 - 75 mph.

A rear locker wouldn't be particularly bad for your U-joints. You are much more likely to break an axle shaft with a locker than you are anything in the driveshaft. It's just that the U-joints in front axles are the weak link there. So breaking an axle U-joint with a front locker is a pretty common thing.

And locker-induced failures aren't likely to happen on the freeway. They are generally due to torque overloads, and that can't really happen at 75 mph. Instead they'll happen when you dump the clutch, or start bouncing the truck trying to climb up a rock.

So I don't think you should be too worried about a rear locker for those safety concerns. But I'm still not saying that you'll like a locker. I think a TrueTrac sounds like a really good fit for that application.

I was going off how the U-joints are typically the weakest link when it comes to power with traction. Maybe its different when dealing with a truck and a hotrod build that has slicks loading up going down the strip.

But now I am kind of curious on the automatic lockers how they would feel driving a short wheelbase flareside with one. Ive driven cars with them but never something like a truck like mine with very low weight on the rear axle.