The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

[Gary Lewis]

I stand corrected. F-Superduty on left F-250 on right.

Gary is 100% correct the 1991 f250 master will not fit. The fittings look to be the same so I can probably rob the brake lines from the f250 to make it work.

It also makes the decision on what master to work that much easier.

That's exactly what I found. I think your build will be essentially the same as mine.

Now about your documentation. I like it. But there have been others that have done similar ones, myself included. So, when we get this done and dusted I need to update the Hydroboost Upgrade tab here: Documentation/Driveline/Brakes and then the Master Cyl's & Boosters tab.

I'm thinking we need to distill our learnings into some words on that tab, and then provide links to our builds. Thoughts?

[IDIBronco]

That's exactly what I found. I think your build will be essentially the same as mine.

Now about your documentation. I like it. But there have been others that have done similar ones, myself included. So, when we get this done and dusted I need to update the Hydroboost Upgrade tab here: Documentation/Driveline/Brakes and then the Master Cyl's & Boosters tab.

I'm thinking we need to distill our learnings into some words on that tab, and then provide links to our builds. Thoughts?

Gary,

I am absolutely happy to help with what I can (similar to the saginaw work I did). I am no pioneer on these projects. I am actually a little self-serving with the documenting of projects, more of a personal record and keeps me working at it. If it just happens to be useful to other people I am happy to have helped. I have a few other projects to do, but this hydroboost/c6 to T19 conversion got bumped to the top. So long as people find these posts interesting/useful I will try to keep posting while I am busy on the project. I am not able to spend a lot of time on forums typically, but I will try to get this project and maybe a bit more done before I go back to the normal work.

[ArdWrknTrk]

That's exactly what I found. I think your build will be essentially the same as mine.

Now about your documentation. I like it. But there have been others that have done similar ones, myself included. So, when we get this done and dusted I need to update the Hydroboost Upgrade tab here: Documentation/Driveline/Brakes and then the Master Cyl's & Boosters tab.

I'm thinking we need to distill our learnings into some words on that tab, and then provide links to our builds. Thoughts?

You guys are amazing!

There's more factual details here than I can imagine.

Great work!

[IDIBronco]

Gary,

I am absolutely happy to help with what I can (similar to the saginaw work I did). I am no pioneer on these projects. I am actually a little self-serving with the documenting of projects, more of a personal record and keeps me working at it. If it just happens to be useful to other people I am happy to have helped. I have a few other projects to do, but this hydroboost/c6 to T19 conversion got bumped to the top. So long as people find these posts interesting/useful I will try to keep posting while I am busy on the project. I am not able to spend a lot of time on forums typically, but I will try to get this project and maybe a bit more done before I go back to the normal work.

This is allegedly the power steering (Saginaw) to brake booster (hydroboost) pressure line. I bought this quite a while ago now (just after completing the Saginaw swap) for this brake swap. I will verify if it actually fits once parts start going together. It is much easier to avoid loosing o rings if I do not open the package yet.

I also got my hands on the original hydroboost lines. The line from the pump got damaged, but was of no concern for me since it would not work anyway. I need to take the lines in and try to order a new oring for the pressure line from the hydroboost to the steering box. I suppose I will have a used saginaw power steering hose available soon if anyone should want it.

Now hopefully I can remember where I put the filter housing I want to use for the power steering.

[IDIBronco]

This is allegedly the power steering (Saginaw) to brake booster (hydroboost) pressure line. I bought this quite a while ago now (just after completing the Saginaw swap) for this brake swap. I will verify if it actually fits once parts start going together. It is much easier to avoid loosing o rings if I do not open the package yet.

I also got my hands on the original hydroboost lines. The line from the pump got damaged, but was of no concern for me since it would not work anyway. I need to take the lines in and try to order a new oring for the pressure line from the hydroboost to the steering box. I suppose I will have a used saginaw power steering hose available soon if anyone should want it.

Now hopefully I can remember where I put the filter housing I want to use for the power steering.

Scratch the hose off the list I think.

The research on rock auto shows 2 different clutch master cylinders for the 2 years. I decided to look closer at the 1991 and the firewall in the 86 f350. The mounting of the clutch masters are slightly different. I went ahead and ordered a new clutch master as well. May as do the project right as needed.

[FuzzFace2]

On a side note, while working on this I saw the pedal was stamped with a part number and said power on it. This got me thinking and I am sure there is an expert out there that can determine this. Was there a manual brake system available on the bullnose trucks/Broncos? If so did it use a pedal with a pin located in a different position? It would seem to me a manual brake system could use a pedal with a pin located more like the hydroboost system uses. I would be curious to see a manual brake pedal if there was one available to see the distance the pin is located away from the pivot.

I can answer that with a BIG YES the pins are in different locations between power & non-power pedals.

I want to say the higher pin is the non-power pedal

Dave ----

 

[IDIBronco]

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124749.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124730.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124607.jpg

I am glad you posted this. Very interesting information in the picture. I was thinking the manual pedal would be an option, but it appears to be mounted 3/4 of an inch higher than the hydroboost pedals, which is 3/4 of an inch higher than the power pedal.

In other news, the weather outlook is talking quite a bit of rain so I suspect progress will slow for the next several days as I have the bronco out back in the grass for working on at the moment.

[IDIBronco]

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124749.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124730.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n65556/20160410_124607.jpg

I am glad you posted this. Very interesting information in the picture. I was thinking the manual pedal would be an option, but it appears to be mounted 3/4 of an inch higher than the hydroboost pedals, which is 3/4 of an inch higher than the power pedal.

In other news, the weather outlook is talking quite a bit of rain so I suspect progress will slow for the next several days as I have the bronco out back in the grass for working on at the moment.

Well I worked on other projects a while this morning (hot tub repairs, essential if I am working on the bronco for evening recovery...), I did manage to figure out what I think is a simple solution for hooking up the brake lines to the hydroboost.

The first thing to note (as Gary mentioned) is the reversal of ports on the brake boosters. The stock cast unit that the bronco had has the rear brakes on the front of the booster, and the hydroboost has the rear brakes at the rear of the booster.

So.

Original

You have to reverse the brake lines on the booster compared to how they originally where located. Additionally, the fitting for the FRONT brake like (originally closest to the firewall) has the wrong end.

This shows the correct fitting for the front brake port on the hydroboost master. The plan is to just remove the end on the brake like and swap this fitting on, and redo the double flare.

Simple enough.

Remove the original double flare on the brake line closest to the firewall (FRONT brake line)

Next remove the original nut from the brake line. It will just slide off the end now.

Since I got the fitting I was going to install from a used brake line I had to do the same steps to get that fitting free, but you could just run to the auto store and buy a new fitting.

You can slide the new nut (remember to be sure to have it pointed the same direction as the one you removed).

Now we begin the process of putting the double flare end on the brake line.

You need a simple line flaring kit with the double flare inserts. This is the kit I picked up a few years ago.

The first step in doing a double flare is to make sure you ream the inside of where you just cut the brake line off.

Next we can clamp the double flare tool on and set the line up.

The brake line should Stick past the end of the flare clamp the thickness of the double flaring insert. Clamp the tool down around the brake line.

Then place the insert into the brake line and press the insert down until it stops against the clamp.

Now remove the insert from the brake line and you can see how the line has bulged out.

Now, just press the bulged section again without the insert this time and you have a finished double flare.

I even threaded it into the f250 master I have loose from my parts truck to be sure I liked the fit.

I will have to finess the brake line positioning once I go to install the lines into the new master, but this method would allow someone to not have to mess with the lines down on the valve on the frame at all.

Last night I had resolved to trying this without changing anything else. If I do not like the brakes when it is back together I can always pull the pedal out and adjust the pin distance to the pivot to make the pedal travel more or less. If I am unhappy with the stock brake bias front to rear I will install an adjustable brake proportioning valve. However, this was quick, cheap, didn't require any new parts or waiting on parts, and was simple. The hardest part will probably getting the brake line bends adjusted to my liking when it is all installed.

 

[IDIBronco]

Well I worked on other projects a while this morning (hot tub repairs, essential if I am working on the bronco for evening recovery...), I did manage to figure out what I think is a simple solution for hooking up the brake lines to the hydroboost.

The first thing to note (as Gary mentioned) is the reversal of ports on the brake boosters. The stock cast unit that the bronco had has the rear brakes on the front of the booster, and the hydroboost has the rear brakes at the rear of the booster.

So.

Original

You have to reverse the brake lines on the booster compared to how they originally where located. Additionally, the fitting for the FRONT brake like (originally closest to the firewall) has the wrong end.

This shows the correct fitting for the front brake port on the hydroboost master. The plan is to just remove the end on the brake like and swap this fitting on, and redo the double flare.

Simple enough.

Remove the original double flare on the brake line closest to the firewall (FRONT brake line)

Next remove the original nut from the brake line. It will just slide off the end now.

Since I got the fitting I was going to install from a used brake line I had to do the same steps to get that fitting free, but you could just run to the auto store and buy a new fitting.

You can slide the new nut (remember to be sure to have it pointed the same direction as the one you removed).

Now we begin the process of putting the double flare end on the brake line.

You need a simple line flaring kit with the double flare inserts. This is the kit I picked up a few years ago.

The first step in doing a double flare is to make sure you ream the inside of where you just cut the brake line off.

Next we can clamp the double flare tool on and set the line up.

The brake line should Stick past the end of the flare clamp the thickness of the double flaring insert. Clamp the tool down around the brake line.

Then place the insert into the brake line and press the insert down until it stops against the clamp.

Now remove the insert from the brake line and you can see how the line has bulged out.

Now, just press the bulged section again without the insert this time and you have a finished double flare.

I even threaded it into the f250 master I have loose from my parts truck to be sure I liked the fit.

I will have to finess the brake line positioning once I go to install the lines into the new master, but this method would allow someone to not have to mess with the lines down on the valve on the frame at all.

Last night I had resolved to trying this without changing anything else. If I do not like the brakes when it is back together I can always pull the pedal out and adjust the pin distance to the pivot to make the pedal travel more or less. If I am unhappy with the stock brake bias front to rear I will install an adjustable brake proportioning valve. However, this was quick, cheap, didn't require any new parts or waiting on parts, and was simple. The hardest part will probably getting the brake line bends adjusted to my liking when it is all installed.

Due to still waiting for the firewall reinforcement to arrive I cannot start actually putting this stuff together for good. So I threw the hydroboost/master in temporarily to check the brake lines...

While not quite perfect, I think I will be able to work them into a position where the lines do not touch each other, or anything else. As a bonus I think the stock brake line clamp may even work...

[ArdWrknTrk]

Due to still waiting for the firewall reinforcement to arrive I cannot start actually putting this stuff together for good. So I threw the hydroboost/master in temporarily to check the brake lines...

While not quite perfect, I think I will be able to work them into a position where the lines do not touch each other, or anything else. As a bonus I think the stock brake line clamp may even work...

Yay! Progress

You're certainly working hard, and it shows.