Thoughts on a heavy hauler...

[Ford F834]

Folks, up front this thread has scope creep beyond Bullnoses, but I think some members here may still be able to help. In July 2018 I bought a place out in Golden Valley, and for 1-1/2 years all of our household water has arrived 275 gallons at a time like this:

This works okay, but takes up far too much of my time especially in summer. I need to be able to haul more at once. So I bought a 1,050 gallon fiberglass haul tank:

The plan was to put this on a 14’ tandem axle Big Tex trailer that I own. (Yes, I know all of this is beyond legal GVWR limits, but this is rural use, not highway). This would work, but would require me to switch the diesel T19 for a granny 1st NP435 in my ‘81 and add a stronger receiver hitch to the frame instead of the ball on the stock bumper. The trailer also needs tires...

So before I sink $ into this set up, I started thinking about the trucks I own, and the way I intend to use them. Trailering is a pain, and access to our cistern isn’t good. Water hauling is a daily thing, and isn’t going away. I really would prefer a truck that can handle the 1,050 gallon tank without trailering. Again, I am talking practical ability at 40 mph on a rural county road, not legal GVWR. You would not believe what I see going down the roads out here... there is still a tinge of the Wild West!

I am not in a huge hurry, but I’ve started eying some options. Heavy trucks are outside of my knowledge area, which is where I could use some help. I welcome any thoughts, comments and suggestions. Obviously I prefer Ford, and having something in the Bullnose/Bricknose/OBS era would help in terms of spare parts... but I’m open to anything that would do the job well.

I see some older 50’s, 60’s & 70’s F600’s that are advertised as 2 or 2.5 ton (mostly dump bed) trucks. My concerns are parts availability and brakes that work about like opening the door and dragging your foot:

1980+ F600/F700 are few and far between, often expensive, and typically have a monstrous bed that isn’t versatile:

1988-1997 F450 Superduty is attractive because it shares parts with my F350 build. They could even be Bullnose’d if I were so inclined. I have read that owners have hauled 8,000 lbs with them, but that they are s-l-o-w. Weight rating wise these are not much above a 1-ton F350, but the frame, axles and springs absolutely dwarf my F350 equipment. The down side is availability, and they were sold as CnC’s so they have odd or no bed when you find them:

One thought I had was how hard it would be to convert a F450 to 4x4. The answer I got is that most people just put F350 8-lug axles in. 10 lug exist but are not something you are going to just find around. So that brings me full circle back to why not just a F350 DRW then? And no, it’s too late to consider DRW on my crew cab. The frame is chopped for the short bed and the haul tank is 9’ long. It won’t even fit a standard bed with the tailgate up. It would be centered over the rear axle, which is probably less desirable than a F450-up, but would certainly open up more options.

 

[FuzzFace2]

1 thing to worry or think about on the larger trucks is to keep is below the 26,000 weight limit unless you have a CDL.

Then you get into what endorsements you would need on the CDL for the tank.

I forget what the limit is but might be 1000 gallons+. Now if I under stand it (could be wrong too) if you did 2 or more 500 gallon tanks you are ok but DOT is looking into maybe changing this because beverage truck have more than 1000 gallons but it is all in smaller bottles.

The other is air brake endorsement for the truck and now if you don't have a CDL is the endorsement for a auto (can only drive auto trucks) or stick (can drive stick or auto).

So with that out of the way and if you are worried the F500+ trucks may be out of the question because of the 26,000 weight CDL thing but that is what I would go with if I could.

You could then go with bigger tank(s) (if not worried on the CDL) so less trips.

I like the looks of the older large trucks but you are right on the "getting parts" thing.

You brought up brakes for parts, don't know how hard it may be to get.

Then you have wheels & tires. Older truck use split rims (wheels) and a lot of shops will not touch them so need to check that part out. Then you have tire size I hear some sizes could be hard to come by.

Can a F450 / F550 truck carry the tank(s) with out over weighting the trucks? To me they look like rebadged F350's and don't know if they can carry the extra weight but that's me.

On the CC trucks with out a bed I don't think it would matter as long as the rear wheels were covered, only need mudd flaps (look at 18 wheel tractors without a trailer) but small fenders over the wheels would keep a lot of wheel spray off everything.

Don't know if I helped or hurt?

Good luck

Dave ----

ps you may want to check out here to see what is posted on large trucks. I don't look in this area but may help you https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum232/

[Ford F834]

1 thing to worry or think about on the larger trucks is to keep is below the 26,000 weight limit unless you have a CDL.

Then you get into what endorsements you would need on the CDL for the tank.

I forget what the limit is but might be 1000 gallons+. Now if I under stand it (could be wrong too) if you did 2 or more 500 gallon tanks you are ok but DOT is looking into maybe changing this because beverage truck have more than 1000 gallons but it is all in smaller bottles.

The other is air brake endorsement for the truck and now if you don't have a CDL is the endorsement for a auto (can only drive auto trucks) or stick (can drive stick or auto).

So with that out of the way and if you are worried the F500+ trucks may be out of the question because of the 26,000 weight CDL thing but that is what I would go with if I could.

You could then go with bigger tank(s) (if not worried on the CDL) so less trips.

I like the looks of the older large trucks but you are right on the "getting parts" thing.

You brought up brakes for parts, don't know how hard it may be to get.

Then you have wheels & tires. Older truck use split rims (wheels) and a lot of shops will not touch them so need to check that part out. Then you have tire size I hear some sizes could be hard to come by.

Can a F450 / F550 truck carry the tank(s) with out over weighting the trucks? To me they look like rebadged F350's and don't know if they can carry the extra weight but that's me.

On the CC trucks with out a bed I don't think it would matter as long as the rear wheels were covered, only need mudd flaps (look at 18 wheel tractors without a trailer) but small fenders over the wheels would keep a lot of wheel spray off everything.

Don't know if I helped or hurt?

Good luck

Dave ----

ps you may want to check out here to see what is posted on large trucks. I don't look in this area but may help you https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum232/

Thanks Dave,

I definitely want to stay below the 26K limit for CDL operators license. Many of the 80’s era F600 and F700 trucks do not have air brakes and can be operated by the average Joe.

The F450’s are odd. The trucks themselves tend to be so heavy (especially with the utility beds and other add-on’s) that the pay load is less than a ton according to the sticker. Make no mistake though, the frame, springs and axles are massive compared to the lower F series. They are in a whole different class. They are extremely heavy duty. The diesels have higher GVWR because of the torque rating. From what owners have posted online, carrying the 8,000 lbs isn’t a problem except for engine power.

Regarding DOT regulations, I already mentioned that I will not be taking this on the highway. The stand pipe where I get my water is only about 2 miles from my house. Estrella Rd has a 45 mph speed limit. Mohave county sheriff deputies do patrol our area, but I have never seen them stop a water hauler. Most of the water-haul home owners are not well off, and most of what you see are ridiculously overloaded trucks and home brew trailers swaying and squirming down the road. I am not saying it’s right, but this is life in Golden Valley. I will not be the only one managing a 1,000 gallon tank. 500 gallons is far more common, but there are others with large tanks or a gang of the “basket” tanks totaling 1,000+ gallons.

 

[85lebaront2]

Thanks Dave,

I definitely want to stay below the 26K limit for CDL operators license. Many of the 80’s era F600 and F700 trucks do not have air brakes and can be operated by the average Joe.

The F450’s are odd. The trucks themselves tend to be so heavy (especially with the utility beds and other add-on’s) that the pay load is less than a ton according to the sticker. Make no mistake though, the frame, springs and axles are massive compared to the lower F series. They are in a whole different class. They are extremely heavy duty. The diesels have higher GVWR because of the torque rating. From what owners have posted online, carrying the 8,000 lbs isn’t a problem except for engine power.

Regarding DOT regulations, I already mentioned that I will not be taking this on the highway. The stand pipe where I get my water is only about 2 miles from my house. Estrella Rd has a 45 mph speed limit. Mohave county sheriff deputies do patrol our area, but I have never seen them stop a water hauler. Most of the water-haul home owners are not well off, and most of what you see are ridiculously overloaded trucks and home brew trailers swaying and squirming down the road. I am not saying it’s right, but this is life in Golden Valley. I will not be the only one managing a 1,000 gallon tank. 500 gallons is far more common, but there are others with large tanks or a gang of the “basket” tanks totaling 1,000+ gallons.

A good friend had a 1970 F600 dump truck, damn thing had an HD 300 in it (huge 3 bolt exhaust pipe) velocity governor under the Carter hand choke YF. Breaker points of course. Truck had started life as a city waste water work truck and had a crew box behind the cab. He said it would only due 45 mph and figured it was governed that way. Crew box was removed and the metal used to extend the dump bed to the cab back. He would loan it to our BSA camp for the summer with the proviso that I would fix anything that got broken. First thing I did was look at the carburetor/governor, found it was only getting 3/4 throttle. After that was fixed I received a phone call from the owner, he said he thought he saw his dump truck pass his house and go airborne over the bridge. Damn thing would peg the 70 mph speedometer! It had vacuum assist hydraulic drum brakes and manual steering and we hauled all kinds of loads in it. I used to pick it up Friday afternoon for a weekend work session and bring it back Sunday afternoon with a mostly full tank of gas from the camp.

If you can find something like that, strip it to the frame, put a flat deck on it and haul your 1000 gals of water.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're looking at over 8,000# in water alone and with no baffles in the tank you need WAY more than that to keep from ending up on your side (or worse)

How much does the tank and flatbed to mount it weigh?

At least 4 1/2 ton at that point!

I think a 550 MIGHT be able to do it, but you're not going to have a good time over ruts or in turns.

And without air brakes it's going to be even more dangerous.

350-450 fuggetaboutit....

Dave drives propane so he is definitely the authority.

That's just my 2c

[Ford F834]

A good friend had a 1970 F600 dump truck, damn thing had an HD 300 in it (huge 3 bolt exhaust pipe) velocity governor under the Carter hand choke YF. Breaker points of course. Truck had started life as a city waste water work truck and had a crew box behind the cab. He said it would only due 45 mph and figured it was governed that way. Crew box was removed and the metal used to extend the dump bed to the cab back. He would loan it to our BSA camp for the summer with the proviso that I would fix anything that got broken. First thing I did was look at the carburetor/governor, found it was only getting 3/4 throttle. After that was fixed I received a phone call from the owner, he said he thought he saw his dump truck pass his house and go airborne over the bridge. Damn thing would peg the 70 mph speedometer! It had vacuum assist hydraulic drum brakes and manual steering and we hauled all kinds of loads in it. I used to pick it up Friday afternoon for a weekend work session and bring it back Sunday afternoon with a mostly full tank of gas from the camp.

If you can find something like that, strip it to the frame, put a flat deck on it and haul your 1000 gals of water.

Thank you Bill! I was going to check out a ‘77 F600 but it was a 3 hour drive from me and it sold before I could arrange the trip. It had a 360 V8 though... and I would vastly prefer a 300HD. I may check out the ‘59 F600 pictured above, as it is local. I don’t know what power plant it has.

Did you happen to drive the ‘70 F600? Wondering how the brakes worked. My dad used to have a 50’s 2-1/2 ton Chevy and he said it was pretty scary in town... it’s older than what we are discussing but not by that much. I had an unfortunate run-in with a wild burro last fall, and black cows in the road at night are a big problem here, so brake effectiveness does worry me.

And yes, that’s me circa 3 years old figuring out a screw driver!

[Nothing Special]

You're looking at over 8,000# in water alone and with no baffles in the tank you need WAY more than that to keep from ending up on your side (or worse)

How much does the tank and flatbed to mount it weigh?

At least 4 1/2 ton at that point!

I think a 550 MIGHT be able to do it, but you're not going to have a good time over ruts or in turns.

And without air brakes it's going to be even more dangerous.

350-450 fuggetaboutit....

Dave drives propane so he is definitely the authority.

That's just my 2c

The 9th gen F-Superduties came with a max GVWR up to 16,000 lbs from what I see. That's 6,000 more than an F-350. And sure, the chassis will be a lot heavier. But my crew cab F-250HD weighs about 6,000 lbs. Lose the extra glass and sheet metal of the crew cab and the bed and add the F-Superduty muscle and you're at maybe 8,000 lbs? 1000 gallons of water might be over its rating, but not by an awful lot.

And baffles in the tank would really only help if the tank isn't full. When it is full there's not much room for the water to move. I'd still be really careful with it, at least until I got some experience. But it doesn't sound undoable.

That said, an F-Superduty seems like the absolute minimum I'd go with. As hinted above, I'd be tempted to not have any more bed than was needed to hold the tank. A bigger truck would be better, but if it was much older you'd have to want it as a project that would need to be (mostly) completed before you could use it.

On the front drive axle, do you need one? You'd have a lot of weight on those drive tires when the tank is full. Could you get by with good tires and maybe a locker?

[Ford F834]

You're looking at over 8,000# in water alone and with no baffles in the tank you need WAY more than that to keep from ending up on your side (or worse)

How much does the tank and flatbed to mount it weigh?

At least 4 1/2 ton at that point!

I think a 550 MIGHT be able to do it, but you're not going to have a good time over ruts or in turns.

And without air brakes it's going to be even more dangerous.

350-450 fuggetaboutit....

Dave drives propane so he is definitely the authority.

That's just my 2c

Jim, if the tank were not full then I would agree, water movement would be dangerous. But when completely full the water can’t move much. I’ve hauled a half-full tank and it’s a sketchy thing, while a full one feels like nothing at all. I see plenty of these tanks, as well as 1,000 gallon horizontal and even vertical tanks going down the road on trailers. The center of gravity is lower, but the stability seems less with tandem axles than dual wheels. My route is paved except for the last 1/4 mile which is a nicely graveled section line road. No overlanding to our parcel. I’m not trying to discount the gravity of your warning... this is one reason I opened the topic for discussion. 4 tons of water is a load to be taken seriously. I am hearing that a F600 is probably the ticket, but I do wonder how much more beef the older ones have compared to the F450 Superduty CnC’s?

[Ford F834]

The 9th gen F-Superduties came with a max GVWR up to 16,000 lbs from what I see. That's 6,000 more than an F-350. And sure, the chassis will be a lot heavier. But my crew cab F-250HD weighs about 6,000 lbs. Lose the extra glass and sheet metal of the crew cab and the bed and add the F-Superduty muscle and you're at maybe 8,000 lbs? 1000 gallons of water might be over its rating, but not by an awful lot.

And baffles in the tank would really only help if the tank isn't full. When it is full there's not much room for the water to move. I'd still be really careful with it, at least until I got some experience. But it doesn't sound undoable.

That said, an F-Superduty seems like the absolute minimum I'd go with. As hinted above, I'd be tempted to not have any more bed than was needed to hold the tank. A bigger truck would be better, but if it was much older you'd have to want it as a project that would need to be (mostly) completed before you could use it.

On the front drive axle, do you need one? You'd have a lot of weight on those drive tires when the tank is full. Could you get by with good tires and maybe a locker?

Thanks for the thoughts... I don’t have a front axle and it wouldn’t be a requirement for water hauling. The only time might be in the aftermath of our periodic flash floods where up to 2’ of sand and rock debris washes over the roads. But the mess is usually cleared within a day. The desire to 4x4 convert it would be more for general versatility, but I will have my F350 for that. The truck ~can be somewhat of a project, since I do have the current 275 gallon at a time method, and the trailer... but I wouldn’t want it to be a very large project like my crew cab. The whole point is to be able to use it fairly soon. As you can see from my examples, I can’t expect perfection in that price range. I expect at the minimum to need tires, brakes and common wear items which will about double the price of most.

[85lebaront2]

Thank you Bill! I was going to check out a ‘77 F600 but it was a 3 hour drive from me and it sold before I could arrange the trip. It had a 360 V8 though... and I would vastly prefer a 300HD. I may check out the ‘59 F600 pictured above, as it is local. I don’t know what power plant it has.

Did you happen to drive the ‘70 F600? Wondering how the brakes worked. My dad used to have a 50’s 2-1/2 ton Chevy and he said it was pretty scary in town... it’s older than what we are discussing but not by that much. I had an unfortunate run-in with a wild burro last fall, and black cows in the road at night are a big problem here, so brake effectiveness does worry me.

And yes, that’s me circa 3 years old figuring out a screw driver!

I drove it a lot, to and from NE Suffolk VA to our BSA camp on the James River outside of Surry VA, probably 45-50 miles each way, then all over the camp on work weekends. Never had a problem with the brakes even loaded. It wasn't a fast accelerator, but would definitely carry a load.

The 58 or whatever (58-60) had quad headlights, 57 was single, engines, 223 6 was basic, then the bigger 6 was 262 (which doesn't seem to have been available until 1961). V8s, 292, possibly a 272, big engines would be a 302 or possibly a 317 or 332 (Lincoln Y-blocks used as HD truck engines). The Lincoln derived Y-blocks will have a ram's horn style exhaust manifold with a center outlet.

Even though the engines are breaker point ignition they may have ball bearing breaker plates, if they are the off-center pivot style, you may be able to convert to a DS-I or DS-II system, but they are pretty damn reliable engines. All are solid lifter requiring valve adjustments.