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Speed Density Issues

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85lebaront2

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

Actually there is an EEC-IV analyzer and a tester out there that I sent one and had the second one shipped directly to Gary.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

In reply to this post by mat in tn

I just rock the crank back and forth while looking for the rotor to reverse direction.

If looking at the breaker handle as a clock hand anything more than a couple of 'minutes' (12° of crank rotation) is way too much.

I don't even have a decent scan tool, let alone a 40 year old piece of dealer equipment.
But I'm sure I figure a way to diagnose a pickup truck if I needed to use it.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Yep. And if I was home I'd suggest Brandon make the 45 minute drive to come get it.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

mat in tn

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

i use old school methods too. nothing wrong with knowing how to do that. i guess all those early day roadside and parking lot repairs were worth something after all

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by mat in tn

The vacuum reading was hg not hz. I typed the wrong abbreviation. I am not sure my guage was sealed tight either. I got some better adapter fittings for the vacuum lones now to try to get a better reading.

The spout was disconnected when the timing was checked. I like to never found it. It's a pigtail hanging below the dizzy.

I replaced the MAP sensor with the only.one available which was a Standard. No more Motorcraft made.

I can't get an adapter to go on the FP rail for my FP test set. Now I am considering pulling the shrater out of it and hooking up the FP test set up that way. I have a fitting that will thread on it. It just won't go deep enough to depress the shrater.

I did something that may or may not be coincidence. When the truck was going through it's extended crank scenario. I hooked.up my mighty vac to the fpr, started pumping and the motor started. My mighty vac is such a POS that it won't hold the vacuum though. I am sort of wondering if this is a poor vacuum issue that isn't pulling the FPR in correctly? Does it matter that much? The FPR is dry on the hose nipple and hose. Also, it will let me apply vacuum to it so I don't believe for these two reasons the FPR is bad. No evidence of a compromised diaphragm IOW.

Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

Maybe just a BB or something under your gauge fitting?

I can't say I understand why you need to pull a bunch of vacuum to get the fuel pressure right.
Is it just dumping fuel at idle?
Because it seems to me it should be rich under low vacuum (throttle opening suddenly) and give the least fuel with high vacuum and the TPS showing closed throttle.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

The truck wants to die at stops. Sometimes you can hold the brake down and raise the rpm at a stop to keep it from dying.. However, when it does die.it acts almost as if the motor.is flooded. When it does eventually start back up you can smell gas, it runs rich as 3 ft up a bull's ass and then clears out. Lots.of smoke from unburnt fuel.

I am really starting to lean towards fuel delivery now.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

What's your TPS voltage?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

mat in tn

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by Bruno2

I'm thinking you need to get the fuel pressure tester going. it sounds to me as if you may have an injector stuck open or not sealing off completely (same thing. kinda) anyway that would lower the rail pressure affecting the rest too but going full rich as far as the o2 sensor is concerned telling the ecu to back down fuel time cycles. too many cooks in the kitchen trying to correct another's mistake. just one theory of many possible but you need knowledge from test results. in some cases, we have removed the Schraeder valve assembly and installed a permanent gauge in its place. not too difficult but may be not for everyone. it does eliminate to option to relieve pressure before opening a system like when changing filters etc. I don't see that using the vacuum pump really made a positive influence other than to "reduce" pressure across the rail. reducing pressure on an open injector would have a positive effect, on that injector

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Ok, some updates on the diagnostics and results. I changed the FPR. The trucks idle seem to improve some. However, it didnt fix the problem. I ran the TPS through a full diagnostic routine. It has continuity to ground on the ground pin. It has .5 volts on the orange wire and the green tested perfect with no fluctuations from roughly 1 V to 5 V wide open. I did this like 6 or 7 times too. I got better vacuum readings this time. It pulls around 19-25 HG.

KOEO FP was about 37 PSI. Vacuum at idle was 19 HG and FP was 32 PSI. Unplugged the vacuum line to the FPR and blocked the line off to block the vacuum leak created. FP went to 42PSI. WOT FP was like 34-36 PSI. The BB trick didnt work. I had to pull the shrater out.

We cleaned the PCV valve up and replaced the EFR vacuum regulator with no change in behavior. I combed the motor over with brake cleaner looking vacuum leaks, but couldnt find any. I hooked up the scanner to the diagnostics port. It gave me the all clear on solenoid function and couldnt produce any codes from the diagnostics mode.

Still the truck drove one mile before dying and giving up extended crank with raw fuel smell, black smoke and a flooded behavior when it did fire up.

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

I ordered a cheap NOID light set . I guess I am going to rock the crank with the dizzy cap off today to see how that looks.

My neighbor had a brick with a bad ecm. It was causing the cylinders to load up with fuel so bad.it would hydrolock the motor. I am not sure if the NOID will tell off on this or not?

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by Bruno2

No codes is sort of making me think pcm/ecm...

Gary Lewis

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

I'm not sure if the NOID will let you tell if it is keeping all of the injectors open too long, but at least you should be able to tell if one of them is quite different from the others.

And a bad ECM could cause a serious problem. Not sure how best to test that though...

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bruno2

Ok, first item, the injectors on the bank fired trucks are grouped 1 - end 4 (1458) 2 - center 4 (2367). Second item, if there is a dead short on either of the injector control circuits, then the injectors on that bank (1 or 2) will open immediately when the key is turned on flooding those 4 cylinders.

If you pull some plugs and see either the end or center ones are extremely rich, I would suspect an ECM issue.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

mat in tn

Re: Speed Density Issues

basically the ecu in bank fire efi only has two driver circuits so the ecu only knows two commands for fuel. when it triggers, it triggers four injectors at a time and does not have the ability to only do one at a time. that system came later. meaning if the problem is from the ecu then the result will show up in four or eight cylinders not just one ,two, or three. it is very possible for it to be an individual injector and not be from the ecu. narrowing it down to which cyl has wet fuel or how many can help get a direction to look.

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

Mat, here is an observation about the fuel pressure test. It seemed as though I really had to get hard on the throttle to het the psi to come up. Like almost WO to get it to climb. Is that normal or is something causing parasitic fuel draw robbing the rail of the ability to pressure up?

85lebaront2

Re: Speed Density Issues

Administrator

In reply to this post by mat in tn

That is exactly what I said, I even specified the cylinder numbers.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

mat in tn

Re: Speed Density Issues

I know. certainly not correcting anyone. just saying the same thing from a different direction. I guess I'm still thinking as if I'm talking to my grown children. haha. I have to tell each one in practically their own entitled language. kids these days. anyway, I'm not talking down to anyone here. I have nothing but respect especially for the group I have been learning from.

mat in tn

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by Bruno2

I'm not saying that you have any certain issue just that there are many possibilities and there are a few things to check. just as many have said. the fuel is at least a symptom. it "seems " to load up or flood out. when you feel as if you are against a wall. take a break. start by checking each plug and maybe keep a note pad of findings. if you have "a" wet/fouled plug then that is a tip. if you have four then that is a very specific clue. if those four are all one bank/batch then it is possibly the ecu/wiring as was earlier suggested. if not, then look at an individual injector at that cylinder. one check to do. turn the key to the on position and see what pressure you get. turn the key off and see what you retain. if it drops with any noticeable rate back to zero then some internal leak exists. the systems do lose a little pressure over time and that is why the ecu triggers the fuel pump relay for 2-3 seconds each time the key is turned to the on position to repressurize the rail before timing out until the ecu registers a running engine. in an extreme case of a leak you would see the gauge pressure return to zero very quickly in which case you should be able to find a dripping wet plug very easily

Bruno2

Re: Speed Density Issues

In reply to this post by Bruno2

May have it nailed down. Pulled the ECM and cracked it open. The big blue capacitors appear burned and looks like the oil has escaped. One of them has a broken leg too.

Ordered a new one and some plugs because I am sure they're are caked with soot. Also, it was radiator time.

We will know in about a week if this cures.it.

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