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New member, big problem

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ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

The question is, as I have already changed the ignition control module without any effect, is it possible That the engine runs as you see in my videos with a defect HALL sensor that causes this double injection...

In my understanding, there isn't much more to replace than I have already done...surely, without success up to now...

If there is no relay or another electrical part involved in the injection circuit, there are two reasons left, as far as I can assess...:

1. HALL sensor / distributor
2. Wiring of the ignition control module

What do you think?

René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic

mat in tn

Re: New member, big problem

unfortunately, I have to say that when a problem arises. very often it is related to the last thing touched. I see a lot of wiring that is not from the factory. although it looks well done to me it may not to the ecu. as was stated earlier in this thread or another here recently the batch fire operates two from each bank each time. you really need to verify that the engine wiring harness is correct before going down any other path. the factories all use multicolored wiring for this reason.

Gary Lewis

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Matt - I agree.

Rene - Here's what I'd do:

1. Disconnect the ECU from the injector wiring, only, and connect my LEDs to the injector outputs. In other words, one LED to 58 and one to 59. Then I'd crank it to see that there is one pulse on each LED per turn of the distributor and that they flash at different times.

2. Connect the injector wiring up and put one LED on the wire from 58 and one on 59. Crank the engine and see if the flashes are the same as with the wires disconnected.

If the flashes are the same then the wiring is ok. But if the flashes are different then you have a wiring problem.

Then we can move on to the next step.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Gary, other than disconnecting the injector harness, that was my last suggestion except I was adding in the coil pulse to see if he is getting a double injector pulse. I believe (can't find all my old documentation) that is the way the bank fired systems work, maybe mat can confirm as I haven't had a bank fired Ford system since 2012.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Ok...either I don't understand what you mean, or I already have done it

This is how have made my tests in the video. I only used the original wiring through the firewall...

So, if nothing, like a relay or something is between the firewall and the ECU in line 58 and 59...I have the leds connected directly to these pins...

Gary Lewis

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Bill - I am not very familiar with the speed density systems either, having jumped from carb to sequential/MAF. (As you know.)

Rene - When you shot the video did you just have the LEDs connected to power and didn't have the injectors connected as well? If so, then you did what I suggested in Step 1.

But in that it appeared to me that both LEDs were flashing at the same time. If so, I don't think that is correct. Otherwise Ford wouldn't have had two outputs on the ECU. Did they both flash at the same time?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Hey Gary, that's exactly what I have done and, yes, both flash at the same time. I'm with you that this can't be normal. As you said, it makes no sense to have two single outputs.

I currently only can imagine that the ECU gets two times the signal for both cylinders from the distributor...either from the HAL sensor or the PIP signal gets disturbed...that's my current theory...I think it's the 20th or so...

Gary Lewis

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Lol! Yep, sometimes it takes a lot of theories to finally find the right one.

If the distributor is giving spurious signals then the ECU could be confused and give twice as many signals to fire as are needed. But why fire both banks at the same time?

Is there any chance that the wiring between where you are connecting and the ECU is shorted between the two outputs?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Good point Gary. Rene, the firewall penetration is a large rubber oval that, with the two underhood harnesses unplugged, should be able to be removed for inspection.

I was trying to find the pictures I had of a harness set I sold that was from a 1986, still the same setup, just different markings.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

No, I have connected an Ohmmeter between the cable lt. Green/green and tan/Red. Both should route directly to the ECU, as far as I know.

I have measured no connection...

85lebaront2

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

This is the diagram from the diagnostic manual for the 1986 trucks, main difference is the color markings, 1985 used dots or hash marks, 1986 went to stripes. No colors are on it though. One problem area I have run into on these is the ground for the entire system is a 1/4" wide male/female pair attached to the battery negative cable clamp bolt. It is a chronic bad connection or is one waiting to happen.

The diagram shows a heated O2 sensor, I have never seen one pre-1987 on a truck, they have always been one wire O2 sensors in the rear of the right exhaust manifold.

Try what I suggested by adding an LED to monitor the coil trigger (it will be on when the module opens the circuit to fire the coil). Coil and injectors should be close to the same time, but injector banks have to alternate.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Hey Bill, thanks for that schematic. That's a very good one to see what's all working together to run the EFI.

As I'm currently already in the south of Lyon, France, on my way to Toulon to get the ferry on Corse, I'm only able to do things theoretical...or I have to give the advice to my mother at home to check the things we elaborate...

I will check the harness, but I think it makes also sense to get a replacement for the HAL or the whole distributor. As you know, I can't go to a hardware store and buy the spare parts...they are very rare and expensive here in Germany...so rockauto.com is my store...

What do you think? Only the HAL sensor or the whole distributor? Any recommendations for a part I can buy at rockauto.com?

Oh also if I am late...merry Christmas 🎄 to all!!!

85lebaront2

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

Rene, enjoy your Christmas! The truck can wait. The Hall Effect Pickup (commonly called an HEP) is a pretty common item, the issue is the replacement, it requires the distributor be disassembled to get it out.

I would do more diagnostic testing first as I suspect a wiring issue as that was very common on these.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Thanks, Bill.

As I have said, I will invest in a new distributor, to be sure I have everything on possible spare parts I need when I start working on the truck as I am back. So maybe you or someone an give me a recommendation...Herr is what I can get:
SKP 1
SKP 2
Cardone 1
Cardone 2

I have found nothing that seems to fit on summitracing.com...

Maybe it makes sense to add a single HEP for restorate my original distributor for my spare part stock...
SMP

As I've said, it's more economical for me to buy possible defective parts in advance to be sure I can work constantly on the truck next year.

The thing is, that I have sold my wife's car with a good profit, but now she also needs a car to get to work. She won't use my CJ7, cause the steering gearbox needs to be changed...it's a bit too sensitive...so that's why I still have a matter of time to get the Bronco ready...

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Hi!
Does anyone have a recommendation for me? I still don't understand what difference a cast iron or steel gear makes...are there any advantages from one to another?

ArdWrknTrk

Re: New member, big problem

Administrator

It depends on your cam material.

If your truck has a stock flat tappet cam you use an iron gear.
If it has a hardened aftermarket cam or factory roller cam you use a hardened steel gear.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Ok...thanks!

I have the 351W factory cam in my 302/347 stroker. So I will buy the cast iron version.
Any recommendations for SKP or Cardone?

Or offers Summit something "better", what I haven't found already?

mat in tn

Re: New member, big problem

you did not say what type of factory cam. if it is a factory roller then it will need the steel cam gear

ReneH

Re: New member, big problem

Ok...I thought I did...I have a flat tapped cam, no roller...

I already have decided to buy the one from Cardone...I think it will make no great difference to SKP...