New EV F-150 Lightning

Sam, what I'm really surprised about is that all these companies are introducing consumer vehicles, while there's already a huge market for delivery vehicles. And delivery companies have no issue investing in their own charging stations.

An extended high roof Transit 350, or a box truck with a roll-up door would literally sell itself.
Stop and go is ideal for re-gen. No fines for idling motors. Much lower maintenance.

But Ford puts out a truck with no bed and GM offers a Hummer.
Hopefully Ram is smart enough to offer something for tradesmen.

FYI did you know Harley Davidson has a electric motorcycle.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/livewire.html
A bike is a play thing so I can see the bike but a car / truck for anything but short trips I just cant see it at this time.
Dave ----

It's been out for a couple of years now Dave.
I don't know what The Motor Company is going to do.
It actually seems to fit with the sort of riding most of their customers do but this sure isn't going to appeal to their "Loud Pipes Save Lives" demographic.

swampedout wrote

As someone who will inevitably be living through the shift towards all electric vehicles, I appreciate this conversation. I know electric motors can provide a lot of instantaneous torque and I can't help but like that. I've been doing the best I can to study electronics the past couple years because whether I like it or not, it's happening.
My dad tells a story about the first time he had trouble with an early fuel-injected Plymouth he had, and how shocked and confused the neighborhood mechanic was when he came over and popped the hood and couldn't find the carbuerator. I'm trying at least to not be that guy.
Luckily, I can't afford any of these vehicles so I have plenty of time to see how all this plays out.

I think it's a fine looking truck. I'm glad they didn't try to make it look like the Tesla Cybertruck. Its definitely following the trend of electricity-themed names, which I'm sure will get played out soon.

I also think Ford was smart to beat its competitors to the punch on an electric truck.

Till the bottom falls out and the truth comes out that its more harmful for the environment to mine the raw materials to build these electric car batteries than it is to simply build a gas powered vehicle.

I think that is where many people draw the line with electric vehicles as you are not resolving the issue which is pollution, you are going from a vehicle that is a 4 on the pollution scale for another vehicle that is supposed to be the most green out there but yet to construct it alone puts it at a 8 on the pollution scale.

I'm sorry Rusty

ArdWrknTrk wrote

It's been out for a couple of years now Dave.
I don't know what The Motor Company is going to do.
It actually seems to fit with the sort of riding most of their customers do but this sure isn't going to appeal to their "Loud Pipes Save Lives" demographic.

I did not know that. I am also not in to bikes but would like to get another someday.

Where I load up LP someone puts out a mag for bikers of whats going on and what has been going on here in the state.
One of the write ups was on the electric HD bike.
The bike looks more sporty than road, like most of their bikes are so wonder how many would trade in their road glide for one?
Dave ----

Exactly Dave.

Harley is struggling for relevance and has branched out into sport bikes before with Buell and MV Agusta brands but never went anywhere with that.

I don't see the Livewire appealing to chopper or bagger riders.
I don't see it appealing to sport bike riders either.
It does seem to fit the Sunday afternoon ride portion of their demographic, that is more interested in "lifestyle" points than actual Live to ride, ride to live types.

There are other electric brands out there, but they don't seem to have the dealer network that Harley Davidson does.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Exactly Dave.

Harley is struggling for relevance and has branched out into sport bikes before with Buell and MV Agusta brands but never went anywhere with that.

I don't see the Livewire appealing to chopper or bagger riders.
I don't see it appealing to sport bike riders either.
It does seem to fit the Sunday afternoon ride portion of their demographic, that is more interested in "lifestyle" points than actual Live to ride, ride to live types.

There are other electric brands out there, but they don't seem to have the dealer network that Harley Davidson does.

With so many bikers getting hit by people and stressing to have loud exhaust to be heard to avoid being hit.  I dont think many real bikers would want to go for a silent bike like an electric bike.

Sure I know they can put speakers on to give you the sound but it would never be the same as the pipes that they run that really grabs peoples attention.

Its like electric bicycles, when I built my 2 stroke gas bike I found out that the electric bikes were not all that popular.  They are popular for people that ride around in parks where gas powered vehicles are not allowed but out side of that most people dont spend the money for an electric bike when for $100 you can convert your bike to a 2 stroke gas powered bike vs the electric bike conversion kit for nearly $1000.

The thing that gets me about the whole EV thing is: the vehicle itself has no emissions, but you plug it into a power grid that has a huge emissions output and no clear solution as far as meeting the energy needs of its customers. To me it feels like an easy way to get around the core issue. The vehicles become visible, the pollution is hidden.
Solar, wind, hydrogen, biomass etc has no way of getting the job done yet. But technology is developing so rapidly, who knows in a couple years.

There are a lot of Teslas around here. Theyve captured a nice market niche for people who want to appear both conscientious and wealthy.

Its not even about displacing emissions
If you take the emissions of the filthiest coal power plant and adjust for X number of kwh of electricity it is still orders of magnitude cleaner than the cleanest current ICE vehicle.

There's just no way to create motive power on location and under varying conditions without a lot more waste.
Vehicles don't spin one steady rpm 24/7/365, fully warmed up.

Electrons don't care how you use them, or when you use them.

Cognitive dissonance seems to be pretty widespread.

swampedout wrote

There are a lot of Teslas around here. Theyve captured a nice market niche for people who want to appear both conscientious and wealthy.

I think people with enough money to buy in do buy in. Not because of virtue signaling, but because of real value.
Incredibly comfortable seats. Ferocious acceleration. Low cost of operation.....
No need to touch a gas pump. Sentry mode, having it come when you call it. Whatever.
They certainly don't have the fit, finish or presence of an upscale vehicle, much less a bespoke one.

But Musk's mere association is incredibly polarizing.
Though it is hard not to hold up Tesla as the EV benchmark.
In much the same way as SpaceX has completely turned space flight on its head, Tesla is going to continue to iterate.
It's going to continue working on new battery chemistries for grid scale installations for renewables.
It is going to grow market share because it is proven and maturing.There is no question of pluses and minuses.

Like I said above, the F-150 Lightning is not for me.
Hopefully Stellaris can get it right for tradesmen.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Its not even about displacing emissions
If you take the emissions of the filthiest coal power plant and adjust for X number of kwh of electricity it is still orders of magnitude cleaner than the cleanest current ICE vehicle.

There's just no way to create motive power on location and under varying conditions without a lot more waste.
Vehicles don't spin one steady rpm 24/7/365, fully warmed up.

Electrons don't care how you use them, or when you use them.

Cognitive dissonance seems to be pretty widespread.

But yet still cars are not the thing we should be focused on pollution wise.  industry is the number one polluter as there is no standard of emissions for industry.  It gets brought up but it is always shot down for fear of driving industry out of this country to china who gives zero f's about emissions.

Speaking of china that is another big hurdle we are faced with, we can clean up and have 0 emissions but it wont help the world when china is given the green light to pump out as much emissions as they want.

I'm pretty much done with the whataboutisim and false equivalence.
Cars are absolutely one of the things we should be focused on.
I am old enough to remember yellow smog that burned your eyes and throat.

China has 3x the population and installed more than twice as much PV as the U.S. in 2020 (48.2 v 19.2Gw)
They already have 2 1/2 times our installed capacity and are opening a bigger lead every year.
One can chose to lead or follow, but the clock does not sit still.

When you say "industry" I assume you're putting the fossil fuels industry front and center?  🤔
Because certainly refineries and chemical plants are some of the worst polluters we have now that steel is gone.
Process heat has always been a dirty issue but there are answers to that too. Mostly in co-generation

New nuclear seems dead in this nation thanks to project mismanagement like Georgia., so we are going to have to rely on fusion from 93M miles away.

I agree that trade and delivery vehicles are a good market for EVs. Years ago, I remember reading that one of the big Scandinavian ports went all electric for their tugs. And I know Tesla has its Semi that keeps getting delayed.
It seems like a lot of these EV releases, like the Lightning or the Hummer, are to prove a point, make EVs cool, create a demand. As usual, utilitarian goals are at the back of the line. It makes sense for Fedex or UPS vehicles to go electric, the only hurdle would be batteries that last a whole days shift.

It's no problem for a delivery truck battery to last all day.
I'd be very surprised if a UPS truck went more than 200 miles in a day.

These vehicles are ideal for a 'skateboard' platform. Lots of stop/start means lots of re-gen.
They aren't wasting fuel idling and consumption to speed is pretty linear.
If their route doesn't require it, then leave some headspace in their cells.
You don't need to fill that last 20%. It is the slowest because ions need to diffuse into an already occupied electrode.
Lithium batteries don't have any memory effect like the toxic old ni-cad's did.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

It's no problem for a delivery truck battery to last all day.
I'd be very surprised if a UPS truck went more than 200 miles in a day.

These vehicles are ideal for a 'skateboard' platform. Lots of stop/start means lots of re-gen.
They aren't wasting fuel idling and consumption to speed is pretty linear.
If their route doesn't require it, then leave some headspace in their cells.
You don't need to fill that last 20%. It is the slowest because ions need to diffuse into an already occupied electrode.
Lithium batteries don't have any memory effect like the toxic old ni-cad's did.

Must not be looking at rural areas where UPS trucks can travel as much as 200 miles making deliveries then the 200 mile trek back.

I know UPS drivers in rural Texas that are driving 350 miles to 400 miles one way making as many as 75 to 100 stops a day before they make the long trek back.  Thats why electric can never replace gas powered in rural areas the distances are just too great for batteries to handle.  They might be great for urban areas where as you put is less than 200 miles a day but in rural areas where you as a consumer can easily drive 100 miles round trip just to go to the nearest store it really adds up when you start dealing with commercial vehicles.

As far as hybrid systems goes, that relies on stop/start as mentioned for some re-gen, when you are on the highway going 70 mph you dont exactly have a lot of stop/start cycles.  Only time you stop is when you are pulling up to your delivery.  Then your next stop might very well not be till the next delivery some 40 miles down the road.

Some times I feel too many people focus on the whole electric aspect with the urban mind set and totally ignore the rural areas which battery powered is just not feesible not even for a commerical application.

I'd like some more details on that use case. Because nobody is delivering packages starting 350 miles from the depot, driving their route, and returning 350 miles.  
Maybe UPS will be forthcoming.........


I've already shown how Ford has literally millions of miles of hard data before they decided on a range for the Lightning F-150.


Sorry. I'm unsubbed.
It hurts my brain to witness this kind cult worship try to justify it's own existence.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I'd like some more details on that use case. Because nobody is delivering packages starting 350 miles from the depot, driving their route, and returning 350 miles.  
Maybe UPS will be forthcoming.........


I've already shown how Ford has literally millions of miles of hard data before they decided on a range for the Lightning F-150.


Sorry. I'm unsubbed.
It hurts my brain to witness this kind cult worship try to justify it's own existence.

Only one with a cult worship is you going out of your way to defend electric vehicles.  Lets look at the data, electric vehicles are being propped up with government funding because no one is buying the cars in large enough quantities to justify their production.  GM had to shut one of their plants down when the government funding was pulled from them and that plant was only building electric cars.

Just face the facts, electric cars have been introduced multiple times for the past 120 years and they never caught on and did away with the internal combustion engine.  Every time they come out they cry its going to replace the combustion engine, they did it in the teens then the electric starter came out and electric went away, they did it in the 50s and 60s and it failed, they did it in the 80s and it failed, they did it in the 90s and it failed, they did it now and it is still failing.

Its like that high speed rail they've been talking about building here in texas for the past 65 years and has it been built yet?  Nope.  They talk big about how its going to revolutionize travel but then the data comes in that people wont use it and then it falls through.  like right now they are citing they will take some 90% of cars off the road along that route it travels but even the state is laughing saying whoa hold a min the best we have ever seen is only 15%.

I've unsubbed this thread because it's pointless to argue against strawmen and FUD.
You know what they say about wrestling a pig: "You get muddy and they actually enjoy it!".

I know two carpenters who drive Lightning's today.
Both of them love the power, quiet, almost complete lack of maintenance, plugging in all the tools on a unimproved job site and the V2H aspect of never needing a generator at home.

So, I'm going to drop this here and close the door behind me.  😉
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/02/ford-rethinks-ev-strategy-is-working-on-a-smaller-cheaper-ev-platform/

We actually talked about something like this in Bible class last night.  It was about people's "security blanket", much like that of Linus of Peanuts fame.  You don't want to take that away abruptly as it causes angst.  And I think that is part of the problem - people thought you could take away the security blanket quickly and everything would be fine.

Ultimately I think EV's are the way to go.  But I'm not ready to ditch our perfectly-good 2014 GLK for something that would cost far more, and the Lightning isn't a viable replacement for how I use my 2015 F150.  It will take time for people to phase into EV's.