ELECTRIC DIESEL HYBRID - EDISON MOTORS

For those not in the know, Edison motors is a Canadian logging truck company that has successfully created an electromotive diesel logging rig. THey've got ongoing projects for customers turning more trucks into diesel electric hybrids, including log trucks, crane trucks and other heavy industrial applications. THeyve basically taken the Diesel electric concept from locomotives, and scaled it for large trucks.

Now, they are piloting a program to bring this tech to the pickup truck crowd. They are starting with fleet vehicles, F350 1 ton solid axle applications and up. Most of the kits will be universal, and they are letting the aftermarket gear up to support specific applications (like bullnose through aeronose, whatever.) Theyve already sold out of franchise opportunities for certified installers.

You can pay a certified installer, or you can install it yourself.

The kit will appear sometime in 2025 or 2026. It will consist of 4wd or 2wd options. All drive-line from the engine to axles will be removed for their full kit. They are specifying a CAT 4 cyclinder engine, generator, and e-axles with the motors in the axles. Im opting to keep my 7.3 idi, and adapt their generator to it.

The 4WD kit will equal 500hp and 8,800 lbft torque

The 2wd kit will be 350hp and about half the torque around 4,000 lbft. (im probably going with the 2wd for cost reasons)

This raises many obvious design/engineering questions and concerns.

1. How will you control such power?
2. How will you reinforce your frame?
3. what will the suspension connection to the frame look like? Leaf, 4 link etc???
4. Where will you place the batteries
5. How will you send power to an axle that is bouncing and vibrating all over the place.
6. etc etc etc.

Ive been following them for a year or so. I got in line and reserved a kit. I will received kit #180.

I have two choices of trucks to put it in. The 88 F250 or the 73' International Loadstar grain truck converted to a Logging rig.

The international would be the most practical use of it. Obviously. However, the F250 with all that torque and the potential for developing a kit to sell is enticing. I have a spare 7.3 idi motor sitting here I could swap into the International...which would be pretty cool, considering the 7.3 idi is an International engine.

For more detail on them, see the website and youtube channels linked below.

https://www.edisonmotors.ca/edison-pickup-kit

Wow!  That's lots of power!  I'm anxious to see how this goes.

Using an IDI seems quite reasonable because they don't rev rapidly nor high, but sure do put out a lot of power at steady R's.  

It would be easier on fuel to use their CAT 4 cylinder, but for my situation, I barely drive the thing. I don't need the expensive CAT motor option. I can get the generator, and design an adapter plate for the idi.

The controls will be the really complicated part I think. Even if you have 4000 lbft of torq, you really dont want to use that power all the time. Stepping of the GO button to the floor would just roast tires or break something.....It'll have to have some smarts.

Im anxious to see and understand the guts of the axle, and how they are sending power out to each wheel....controlled clutch system, open diff? I haven't a clue on that yet.

I'm not sure what the point is, even before the ridiculous inefficiencies, converting diesel to electricity, and electricity back into motion.
THEN, you have to include that you have both an engine AND an electrical system to maintain.

With a diesel-electric loco you're doing it because you can optimize the diesel to run at one speed and you need the insane torque of electric motors to shift loaded freight trains.

This epitomizes the WORST of BOTH!

Y

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I'm not sure what the point is, even before the ridiculous inefficiencies, converting diesel to electricity, and electricity back into motion.
THEN, you have to include that you have both an engine AND an electrical system to maintain.

With a diesel-electric loco you're doing it because you can optimize the diesel to run at one speed and you need the insane torque of electric motors to shift loaded freight trains.

This epitomizes the WORST of both.
I don't know what idiot came up with this crackhead idea, but I suspect their IQ is less than their age.

You Sir are one sad man. Negative much? Passive aggresion is a sign of insecurity. You ARE the reason I mostly stay off Gary's website. You are constantly judging and condemning others. Everytime I get on here you make some snarky remark about what I or someone else are doing.

I bet I could fine 100 things in your life that make no sense, and claim you have no brain cells either. But I don't, because I'm not a low self esteem miserable old man.

Good buy. I don't even give a !@#$ anymore.

Hey guys, this isn't the agreed-to plan of appreciating each other as the guidelines say.  Please don't be yelling or leaving mad.

You both have your opinions and reasons why, but that doesn't mean you are right.  We agreed to support each other and if we cannot say supportive things then we shouldn't say anything.

I respect both of you, but we cannot be acting this way.

Negative?
There is NOTHING about this that makes ANY sense unless you are Rube Goldberg* and like to* waste both time and money.
Good luck Ray!

Gary, I've made no comment towards Ray, and have absolutely nothing against him.

He's  an industrial designer who posted someone elses retrofit driveline that is a mashup fever dream with precisely zero upsides and 101 points of failure.
Nothing was directed at him, nor would it ever be.
That's not the way I roll.
But if he is asking about it as a purchase or investment idea, I'm going to take one glance and nope right out of that stupidity.
It makes as much sense as an electric ice cube.


ETA: Gary, you've worked for the railroad. You understand how crazy efficient those Fairbanks-Morse and GE  diesel/electric locos are.
But they don't have any batteries, or a throttle pedal, because that would make them a financial disaster for the railroads.
Heck, the railroads would get rid of diesel entirely if they could afford the copper for caternary across the nation.
No fuel depot, fuel system, no sliding parts, no need for an oiler, or oil changes
Their locomotives would need ballast to hold them down, for traction.

Here we have what is (in our members opinions) a perfectly good diesel powered truck.
And then to take that same antiquated, inefficient indirect injection engine and use it to drive a generator, to charge a battery, to turn an electric motor🤯

But let's look at the laws of thermodynamics.... 🧐
35ish % to change diesel into motion, heat and noise.
70ish % to for a generator to turn power into electrons
95ish % to charge and discharge a battery
95ish % to take electrons and put them into motion.
85ish % for driveline losses in a 4x4 pickup.

So, if starting out at 35% (which is about the best you could expect from one of our trucks) and the 15% drive line loss stays the same regardless.
For a perfectly serviceable pickup....

Then you add weight, complexity and reduced carrying capacity.
You're not removing anything that drove the truck, except replacing the gear box with an electric motor, behind a generator.🤷‍♂️

You're stacking another 40% losses in the middle, as you see....
THEN you have to manage a charging system -AND- the often reviled batteries, (which actually seem to be proving out for everyone, but that exceptional emergency traveling trombone repair man.)
What's the upside?

Bill calls out Ford for 'crackhead' engineering, But we have no idea of their directives, nor the CBA metrics...
This is BLATANT hucksterisim to a legion of synchophants.

Someone figured out a way to separate another person from their money.
It's been happening since the scriptures, well before biblical times.
"Nothing new to see here, keep moving along"...

Here we have something that's demonstrably absurd from an engineering perspective, and doubly so given the environment it's supposed to work in.
Then add that people's lives and livelihood would depend on it and you have a recipe for failure.
My only takeaway is that it's hopping on the "it's electric" express to 'woo' land and trying to pilfer some federal 'sustainability' $$$

ETA: I actually didn't read far enough to see that Ray had put a deposit. (much like the timing chain video)
Apologies, I'm sorry for pointing out the obvious.

Yes, it was the fact that Ray has bought into this in a big way so it was indirectly statements about him.

And who knows for sure that this isn't going to work well?  I recognize that changing from mechanical to electric and back to mechanical has losses, but this outfit seems to have information that says their approach works well.

Well, like I said, I didn't get past the video (or even halfway through) so I missed entirety that he would actually want one.

I never said a thing about HIM or to him, and I have no reason to temper my assessment, other than to say the person running this scam is not an imbecile. They are a charlatan and deserve to be called out!

When they can avoid the laws of thermodynamics I will retract what I said.
Until then, it's a steaming pile

Ban me if you like...

I'm not wanting to ban you.  All I ask is that you temper your responses a bit and understand the situation before posting.

I appreciate that.

I definitely should carefully assess the ENTIRE battlefield before taking up arms against what I feel (and can prove) is a company looking to profit off uninformed individuals.

Collateral damage is something to be avoided at most costs.

At the same time. I don't want to see this great forum, which is seen as being "The best place for Ford truck information on the web", becoming a billboard for thieves.

I broach no quarter with people like that.

Hey Ray, wanna let you know that I appreciate your post.

And I appreciate Jim too, our generous (but sometimes grumpy) bear.


Maybe I won’t jump in this upgrade train, but I like when some adventurous members get others informed about solutions coming on, that could help us (or our descendants) to keep our trucks on the road.

Can’t predict what tomorrow will bring, but maybe our grand kids won’t have other choice than to make some serious transformation to our Bullnoses, if they want to ride them in the future.

So, please stay here and keep us informed about your hybrid/diesel journey!

BigBrother-84 wrote

Hey Ray, wanna let you know that I appreciate your post.

And I appreciate Jim too, our generous (but sometimes grumpy) bear.
.............
So, please stay here and keep us informed about your hybrid/diesel journey!

Honestly, I appreciate your comment. Thats how a comment should be made, respectfully.

Anyway, the POINT of doing this is the torque. Running a diesel at optimum rpm is the most efficient way to run the engine. Yes there are losses, but regenerative braking is included, which helps some. The point isn't to get the best fuel mileage, especially in a pickup.

This setup works INCREDIBLY well for large industrial applications, and yes, it is more cost effective. There is a lot fewer moving parts, and that means less maintenance, less down time, and thus everything gets more cost efficient for the operator. Not to mention the reduction in operator stress from a machine that barely makes any noise while operating. The drilling rigs are operating completely off batteries part of the time....imagine being able to hear your rigging creaking and popping, instead of a diesel motor constantly running.

For a pickup truck, it might make less sense, but this is AMERICA, where if we want to put 8,800ftlb of torque @ 1rpm in a 3/4 ton truck, we can, and we do, and we will because it's awesome. MURICA!

I drive this truck once or twice a week. I engineer from home. So I don't need to drive it daily. About 25% of the time I am towing a trailer. The 7.3 idi in the hilly part of KY I live in is lacking power. Its pathetic actually. The gear vendors helps a lot, and honestly only makes it just bearable on the two very steep hills on both sides of me. Yeah I can turbo charge, but thats lame compared to 4000-8800 lbft torque. I mean, what do you want, a .22LR or a Bradley Tank? Uh...duh. I don't care if it makes sense or not!

I don't need it....but I want it.

The founders of Edison Motors aren't idiots, they are actually very successful businessmen with a Canadian/American entrepreneurial spirit, lots of experience in the blue collar truck driving world, fabrication etc. In the least, they aren't armchair internet trolls that use forums for an ego validating echo chamber like a lot of so called experts I see online.

They've looked at the Tesla truck, and said its ridiculous and over engineered, and made their own electric truck using existing parts, and brought it to market 10X faster than Old Elon has. And it works!! I'd say that's pretty SMART!!

DEBOSS GARAGE has officially partnered with them, and all their official installation franchises are SOLD OUT.

Anyway...maybe I'll update this thread as I go along, I don't know. I used to think I belonged here, but just about every time I get back on I get a certain someone nay-saying and poo-pooing my opinions so they can get a moment of self satisfaction through bullying. So, I'll probably just disappear again, because I have better things to do than to argue with a troll about anything.

I'll say again that we have all agreed to support people, not be nay-sayers.  I hope we can all abide by that.

And I hope you will continue to update this thread, Ray.  I am interested to see how this goes.

I had an 88 7.3 like you, but with the ZF5.

And I had turbo envy!

Ray Cecil wrote

Anyway...maybe I'll update this thread as I go along, I don't know

Nah, you have to feed this thread man.
You cannot simply drop a techno subject, titillate our curiosity and vanish in the dark.


But I also understand that this operation is not going to happen soon, we’re talking months, if not years.

Please just don’t forget to keep your thread up to date, when some new things will come!

grumpin wrote

I had an 88 7.3 like you, but with the ZF5.

And I had turbo envy!

I did some tuning on it the other day. Advance the time just a biscuit hair, and turned up the fuel 1 flat. Doesn't blow black under partial throttle, and just barely a tiny bit under full throttle. Seems to have given a few extra ponies around 2000-2700rpm.

The gearvendor really helps splitting those gears.

BigBrother-84 wrote

Ray Cecil wrote

Anyway...maybe I'll update this thread as I go along, I don't know

Nah, you have to feed this thread man.
You cannot simply drop a techno subject, titillate our curiosity and vanish in the dark.


But I also understand that this operation is not going to happen soon, we’re talking months, if not years.

Please just don’t forget to keep your thread up to date, when some new things will come!

I'll try. I'm not retired, still doing 40-50 hours. Still raising kids. Homesteading too. Large garden, and raising 75 chickens at the moment. Not to mention, we take in foster kids for respite care now. Also got 2 f150s to restore for the boys. 1 brick and 1 bull.

I can post Deboss garages updates. They are the guys partnering with Edison Motors to develop the kits, so they are tackling full kits for later model fleet trucks first. Then they'll start on the older classic trucks.

I tried contacting them to see if I could help design any of the kit, but no response yet. I'm sure they have a lot of people asking the same question.