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Big Blue's Transformation

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Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

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Lunch time, I take it. Just left the Mac's/Daylight lot (they were out

) and saw you go by.

Anyway, I shouldn't have to hone the calipers, should I? Doesn't the piston pretty much float in the bore and the seal takes the place of the rings?

The one caliper I've taken apart had a bit of wear on one piston, the one with the messed-up head, but the other one looked fine on the sides. Guess I need to pull the other caliper apart today while the twins are in Jenks and see what I have.......

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I can't see phenolic wearing steel.

Usually the fluid takes on water and when I falls out of solution it pits the bottom of the bores.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

The bores on these calipers have no pitting. None. Here's a shot of what they look like, all the way around. And that's just surface rust - which you don't see with the naked eye. So I think they are in excellent shape and won't need the hone. Thanks anyway, Steve.

And, for those who want to know what's inside of a caliper, not much. Here's the total for two of them. And what I think needs to be replaced is: the seals, which are the square-cut o-rings on the corners; the piston boots, which are the seal looking things in the middle left and right; the bleed screws, which have cleaned up in blasting but which will rust quickly with no plating; and the pistons. The slide pins and their boots, which are across the bottom above the pistons, are ok. Not perfect as the boots were placed in a rusty bore and there are marks on them to match the rust. But, they are solid and I've removed the rust down to shiny metal.

And, speaking of that, the left caliper was in the blast cabinet about 30 minutes. Turns out the rust is tenacious and it'll take another 30 minutes to make it ready for powder - if I were to do that. But I'm not sure I want to start that for this project. Thoughts?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I think the piston seals probably have a slight taper to their cross section.

If it were me (and I didn't want to powder coat them bright red) I would probably leave the surface rust and treat them to some passivation process like parkerizing or black phosphate coating.

Then at least they have a fighting chance.

I'm still amazed how rust free a 24 year old truck is down there.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Looks like the total for parts to rebuild the calipers is $31.29.

As for coating the calipers, if I don't PC them I could put a phosphate coating on them. But, I could also paint them with POR15 which would stick tightly to the rust. And, since the calipers don't get much UV the POR wouldn't really need a top coat. However, since I've learned that it is easy to rattle can the top coat while the POR is sticky, that's not a big deal.

Bright red!?!?

EDIT: I'll check for the taper.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

So with $37 in pads you're in it for $68.29 and your time.
That's cool.

I hadn't thought of Paint Over Rust 15.
Can't say I've used it.
Generally I try to stay away from film forming coatings on the undercarriage.

But you seem to like it, and I trust your judgment.

I'll stop taunting you about the accent colors on BB.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Maybe that's just the way seals were long, long ago.
I imagine a manufacturer could accomplish the same by cutting a groove with an out of level floor.

Anyway the idea is for the seal to have bias and some stiction that causes the rubber to pull the piston back, but still allow it to advance as the pads wear.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Yes, it is cool. Thanks for the suggestion of rebuilding them.

As for the POR15, if the surface is properly prepared you won't get it off. But "properly prepared" is laborious for frames and the like as it requires serious cleaning and if the metal isn't rusty it requires a phosphate coating or media blasting to give it tooth.

However, I may well paint Big Blue's frame with it where I do the repairs. Someone has already painted the frame gray, and I have gray POR, so.....

And, I do expect to do some powder coating or POR'ing of other parts as I don't think the Sky parts come coated. But, I will order the panhard rod already PC'd as I don't want to have to remove the bushings to do that. Fortunately it comes in black.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Not everyone knows how that seal/o-ring works - although obviously you do. I think it is cool that it twists and then pulls the piston back, up to a point. Then the piston slips a little bit and the o-ring grips it again and twists.

That is, until the o-ring gets stiff or it gets damaged, like by a rusty piston. Which is one of the reasons why the phenolic pistons are a good idea - they don't rust.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

They don't rust AND they're much less conductive than most metals.

So they don't transfer much heat from the pads to the fluid behind them.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Yes, I think phenolic pistons are the way to go. Hadn't thought about it heretofore, but it certainly makes sense.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Turns out the rust is tenacious and it'll take another 30 minutes to make it ready for powder - if I were to do that. But I'm not sure I want to start that for this project. Thoughts?

1) I think I'd be shopping for remans with modern coatings (like good galvanizing, or yellow phosphate)
2) I think it's time to replace your blast media. I don't do as much as you, but I'm liking the GlassBeads I got last year:
https://www.tptools.com/Most-Popular-Abrasives.html

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Well, if you're going to plate them there's no need to media blast them at all.
After the detergent bath they go into a hot pickling (acid) bath before being rinsed and plated.

Maybe that's why some rebuilds are offered that way?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Steve - I have several bags of crushed glass media, so need to use that before changing. But, I probably do need to dump what I have and add some new. Might do that before I blast anything else. But, I will say that the glass has REALLY cut down on the dust over the coal slag.

As for plating, I want to use the calipers I have given how good they are in the bores. But I do have some epoxy powder that I might use instead of the polyester. It doesn't have as much UV stability, but there's not much UV behind solid wheels.

Jim - Plating sounds like a lot of work with chemicals I don't have. Think I'll stick to powder.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Gary, I wasn't suggesting you do plating....

I was rationalizing why rebuilders might plate their calipers, besides the 'Oh, shiney!' aspect of sales, they can't damage bores with abrasive media and the rustproofing of plating makes for happy customers.

ETA: Parkerizing or phosphate treatment IS pretty easy to attain in the home shop.
Kits are available from Midway shooters supply.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Parkerizing&userItemsPerPage=24

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Steve83

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Banned User

OFF-TOPIC...

Are you into that? I've been thinking about getting into nitrocarburizing/bluing/etc. at home, but I haven't done any research into it yet. Is there a forum like this for it?

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim - Makes sense.

And, while Parkerizing is fairly easy from what I've read, what I think I'll do is to give them a phosphate coating and then powder coat them on top of that. The phosphate tightly bonds to the iron and gives powder more tooth, or surface area, to grab.

My grandtwins are here and I'm spending time with them. But this afternoon they were playing outside so I slipped out to the shop for a few minutes. Another 20 minutes in the blast cabinet got the one that I'd started on to the point shown below. It think it is ready for the phosphate spray.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Steve83

Steve,
I've only done some cold bluing and parkerizing.
Never anything like color case hardening or nitriding.

There are LOTS of gunsmithing forums, and quite a few dealing with restoration and collection of military memorabilia.

There are lots of experts willing to share their knowledge.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

I think I'll do is to give them a phosphate coating and then powder coat them on top of that. The phosphate tightly bonds to the iron and gives powder more tooth, or surface area, to grab.

I never thought of phosphate as a coating. More of a chemical treatment that converts the surface to iron phosphate, not adding a film thickness.
Similar to flash rust (iron oxide) or case hardening (carbon diffusion into the steel itself)

At any rate, I see you're getting good use of those Home Depot totes.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I guess you are right, it isn't a coating but a treatment. Thanks for the correction.

As for the totes, those are actually from Sams, but appear to be the same as HD's. I've decided that instead of looking for cardboard boxes as we leave Sams I'll buy a tote to bring the things home in. Works out nicely.

That one has more than I care to lift in it, including D60 spindles, knuckles, spring hangers & shackles, IDI perches, u-bolts, shock mounts & towers, dust shields, etc. Consolidated a lot of stuff, but is way too heavy to carry w/o help.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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