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85 460 dual tanks

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Haystack

85 460 dual tanks

I picked up an old 85 a guy was using as a farm truck. The guy cut a ton of wires, and burned a bunch of the wiring harness up just leaving bare wires hanging.

Front tank didn't work, previous owner hacked in a switch and wire to the rear tank, of course cut every wire at the frame rail near the front tank. I have fixed the tail lights and am now going after the fuel system.

Carb leaked everywhere, float bowls, accelerator pump, and the power valve. I took it apart, reset the float, regasketed everything and swapped out the power valve, but now I have black smoke at idle. 4180 carb was modified with corner idle adjustment screws, all the linkage is disconnected except for the primary throttle shaft. I found and added the linkage to the accelerator pump from the junk yard, but haven't gotten around to the secondaries yet.

I re-set the timing and idle screw, turning the corner idle adjustment screws just give me clouds of black smoke, so I checked the fuel pressure and I am getting 11psi at the fuel line.

Is there supposed to be a regulator? I know there is a step down using a resistive wire, I am going to work on splicing that back together next, but I need to figure out why I am getting such high fuel pressure. I can see two lines, one fuel in, one return, the return line seems to loop down right before the carb, is there a regulator there? I have not verified that the return line is hooked up, and I could see this being the whole problem, but the diagrams do not show any regulator at all anywhere in the system. This is the dual tank system, and the selector valve and all wiring has been bypassed to a hot wire off the fuse box.

Sorry, I am an efi guy, and this is my first ever carb. I have and currently own two 86 thunderbirds with sefi 302's, so I am pretty well versed in old fords, just never had a carb before.

1985 bull nose 460 cab and chassis bucket truck. T-19, hot fuel handling and more splices then an entire telephone infrastructure.

Gary Lewis

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

There is no true regulator. If you have a return line then you have the hot-fuel handling system which uses a small orifice to return some fuel to the tank. But those sometimes get plugged since the orifice is so small.

And yes, you are supposed to have a resistance in the harness to drop voltage to the pump when in Run. It gets full voltage in Start. So if that's been bypassed then you have too much voltage.

But 11 psi is about twice what you should have at the carb. I don't know what a Holley can stand, but a Carter/Edelbrock has problems above 6 psi - and the problem is high fuel level and rich running.

You could put a true return-style pressure regulator in, but you should find out why you have such high pressure first.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

In reply to this post by Haystack

I will almost be willing to bet it has the wrong in-tank pumps. The originals are centrifugal pumps that deliver at 5-7 psi. The EFI primary pumps are stronger and probably do produce 11 psi.

What you have is called a "Hot Fuel Handling Package" it was developed originally for the Ambulance cab and chassis trucks because they would vapor lock when sitting still and running. Since the tanks are identical for the EFI and hot fuel handling package, very likely someone installed the wrong pumps.

Here is a link to the 460 fuel systems: https://www.garysgaragemahal.com/460-fuel-systems.html

It covers the system pretty well. When I needed a pump for mine only Pep Boys actually had a listing for it.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Haystack

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by Haystack

Crawled under it, it has a generic fuel pump with only a part number zip tied to the frame. All the wires are cut going to the fuel tanks, as well as the lines. They jammed a 1/4" barbed fitting into the nylon lines.

Debating on if I want to add a mechanical fuel pump (they are around $20) and just bypass the mess this guy made.

In the next few days, I am going to try to test the fuel take selector valve to see if it functions. Front take smells really bad, I may drop that out and see what's inside of it.

I got 7mpg driving it home, really don't want to only have a single tank if I can help it, but not sure if I want to replace 3 fuel pumps and the selector valve before I get the truck running.

Thanks for the replies and links, I know what I need to do now, thanks!

1985 bull nose 460 cab and chassis bucket truck. T-19, hot fuel handling and more splices then an entire telephone infrastructure.

Gary Lewis

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

The fuel systems on the Bullnose trucks were an experiment Ford was conducting to see what would work, and most of them failed. Not until several years later did they stumble on one that works and for which you can buy parts. But that system is for the EFI trucks and, while it can be made to work for a carbed engine, it is serious overkill. Been there, done that.

Parts for the dual-tank system with a mechanical pump are hard to find and expensive - as well as troublesome. If I were in your shoes I'd consider the aftermarket 38 gallon rear tank and a mechanical pump.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

In reply to this post by Haystack

Here is the link to the pumps on Rock Auto. If you look at the pictures you will see they are centrifugal. I used my truck as a reference, it's an 86 crew cab dually now converted to MAF/SEFI from carbureted.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1986,f-350,7.5l+460cid+v8,1126358,fuel+&+air,fuel+pump,6256

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Haystack

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by Haystack

I pretty much decided on just adding the mechanical pump and the bronco 38 gallon tank, however...

This is a "stripped chassis" truck with duals and I guess that means it has narrower frame rails and the 38 gallon tank may not fit. I know it's an "over 8500gvwr" truck, but the door tag is almost illegible.

This is a bucket truck with a utility bed on it, and I like the idea of the dual tanks both for range and as a back up, the bucket is powered by a PTO off the transmission, so if you ever run out of gas, the bucket also stops working. I am going to mess with it tomorrow and measure the frame rails to see if it really is narrower. If I have to buy new parts, I think I would rather have the 38 gallon rear tank and a front (16 or 19 gallon?) tank for both range and a backup/safety. When I get this truck working properly, I am going to be putting it to work, and the capacity/range would definitely be a benefit. Seems like this thing has around a 5:13 gear with no overdrive, so every gallon is going to count!

Funnily enough that you guys mentioned the newer efi setups, my next project will be getting the dual tanks working again on my dad's 91 e-250 EFI 460. It's not in bad shape for the year, but gas has been over $4 a gallon out here, so my dad rarely takes it out more often then an annual dump run. I may just convert it over to the newer efi type setup fuel system since any extra or unused parts could be used or shared for troubleshooting when I get around to the van.

I got all the wiring and lights swapped out for the tail lights, replaced all the bulbs, decided I was going to take it around the block, and the clutch died on me, feels like I don't have quite enough travel on it, so now I am messing with the hydraulics.

1985 bull nose 460 cab and chassis bucket truck. T-19, hot fuel handling and more splices then an entire telephone infrastructure.

85pig

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Just wondering out loud, but if this truck came stock with an electric pump, would it have a fuel pump eccentric on the cam gear?

1985 F150 4X4 300 I6 4-Speed
1970 Torino Cobra "Twister Special" 429CJ 4-Speed
1965 Mercury Comet Caliente Convertible 331 5-Speed

Gary Lewis

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

That's a good question, but I think in 85 they still had an eccentric on all the engines. Or at least a place for the pump on the block as the eccentric can be added.

Haystack - You have to decide up front if you want to go with the EFI-style tanks and fuel delivery modules as the FDMs have a tab that goes into a slot in the tank, and it is in a different place on the EFI tanks.

But if you do you can still run a carb. I ran the FDMs with two fuel pressure regulators. First I had a return-style regulator, but by itself the pressure was bouncing all over the place and I worried that the carb couldn't handle that. So I added a dead-head style regulator and that smoothed the pressure out nicely.

And I also had to install a MeterMatch to convert the sending unit range to something that works with the Bullnose gauges. But now I have a system that is tried and true, AND is available off the shelf at many parts stores.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

Even the later EFI engines still have the eccentric as it serves as the retainer for the cam gear.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Haystack

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by 85pig

The "hot fuel package" is listed as a tsb for trucks from 1982 to 1987, I am assuming there weren't too many fuel injected trucks in 1982, and the hot fuel package bolts to the cover plate for the mechanical pump, replacing it in the tsb, so I would assume it has what's needed to be run. My understanding is that most efi 85 302's still had the eccentric on the cam, that's how my EFI 85 gt motor was, and the 460 was carbed until 1987, so I don't see them pulling the timing chain cover and cam depending on which fuel tank was matched with the body.

I really need to drop the tank to figure out what they previous owner did, but I am sort of putting it off, because the more I dig on this truck, the more I end up replacing. I have a feeling the selector valve died so they just cut the wires and ran their own, a common theme so far.

1985 bull nose 460 cab and chassis bucket truck. T-19, hot fuel handling and more splices then an entire telephone infrastructure.

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

There were no EFI 460s until 1988. The hot fuel handling package was originally for the ambulance chassis as they would spend a lot of time idling and in the hotter areas would vapor lock which in a ambulance is not a good thing.

The electric in-tank pumps were just one part, the other was a plastic shield over the front of the mid frame tank as the left side exhaust comes rather close on a standard cab. On a super cab it is 22 inches further back and a crew cab, 35 inches further back.

If you own a super cab or crew cab that has the plastic shield on the mid frame tank, I recommend removing it as all it does is collect dirt and rust the top side of the tank seam until the tank leaks.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Ifitaintbroke

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by 85pig

Bill is correct. My truck is an 86 with the hot fuel handling package, and originally had electric fuel pumps. It has the eccentric. After several months of frustration trying to find electric pumps that would work, I put on a Holley mechanical and have never look back. One of the problems you will find is that, unless you buy the expensive high-perfprmance stuff, fuel pumps these days are garbage. I have had some pumps that ran exactly one time and quit. If you must have one, the Holleys are ok. Insanely loud, but they work. In my experience, a mechanical pump is just so much simpler, and I trust it more. Just my $0.00000002.

Bradley
86 f250 supercab longbed, 4x4, 460 bored to 472 cubes, ported heads, ARP rod bolts, EFI pistons, 5.08/5.41 lift 114° lobe separation flat tappet cam, notched lifters, Smith Brothers pushrods, stock rockers, Eddy Performer intake, Holley 1850 or 3310 depending on mood, custom curved points dizzy, MSD analog 6al triggered by Pertronix module, zf5 swap, 3g alternator, custom instrument cluster, dual tanks with 38 Gal rear for 57 Gal of fuel capacity, far too much more to mention.

98 Ranger standard cab, rwd, 5-speed, 2.5L, glass pack muffler, dual plugs wired to fire at the same time, coming up on 300,000 miles before too long.

Averaging 26-27 mpg.

South Georgia.

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

When I was trying to find a pair in 1994 when I bought Darth, Pep Boys was the only place that even had a listing for them. Rock Auto showed them on the 16th when I was looking.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Haystack

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

In reply to this post by Haystack

Been doing little things here and there, mostly related to the bucket and hydraulics.

I did figure out and wire in the resistive wire, it didn't seem to make any difference to the fuel pressure.

Had to break the dizzy to get it out (was timed at 32° with no vacuum advance), luckily new ones are relatively cheap and available. Pretty sure I am one tooth off, doesn't have the power it did before and it back fires under load with the vacuum advanced hooked up, but timing is correct unless the balancer marks spun.

Spark plugs looked brand new, was going to wire in the fuel sending units, but found another 20 or so wires in a butchered harness, all related to the fuel system. I think it's better off leaving it alone until I decide to tackle the fuel system.

Man this hydraulic clutch is almost impossible to bleed, I have gotten to the point that I have just enough travel to pop it in 1st and reverse. There was lots of burned up clutch material jammed in the bell housing, cleaning that up seemed to make the clutch move more easily and the clutch still feels fine, but I will probably replace it when it warms up.

Next up is the heater, mirrors (they are there, but glass has so many chips it's impossible to even see at night) and ideally a radio, but that's last on the list.

For now it is registered and driveable, and I have no need for it until this spring. For now, I think I am just going to use it to hang Christmas lights and I'll start tackling all the little stuff as I have time, and the fuel system when it warms up.

Has anyone who has done the 38 gallon tank swap done it in a cab chassis? It definitely has the narrow straight 34" frame. It looks like the f26a tank is narrower (listed at 34 1/4") while the f26d and f26e seem to be 34 3/4, but the f26a does not have the vent on top.

I do want to keep the dual tanks for reliability and to maximize range, but a mechanical pump and a single tank sure seems like the easiest way to go. Otherwise I need to add/replace all the wiring, fuel selector valve, front tank/pump ECT. It also seems like a waste to replace the only working fuel tank, but that electric pump zip tied to the frame rail has to go either way.

1985 bull nose 460 cab and chassis bucket truck. T-19, hot fuel handling and more splices then an entire telephone infrastructure.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Do you need the vent on top?
If this truck is as butchered as you say I doubt the charcoal canister is hooked up anyhow.
I cannot say I've installed a deep tank on a straight frame truck.
Edit: the C&C trucks have a unique rear tank for '85-86 E5TZ 9002-E

Bleeding the hydraulic clutch is a challenge.
My best advice is to drive it on a rough road and the vibration will shake the bubbles up to the reservoir.
(I know this sounds weird but you have to have faith)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

Jim, the C & C trucks have a different rear frame due to the use of a Dana rear axle rather than the wider Sterling 10.25".

On bleeding the clutch hydraulics, from a Mercedes-Benz manual (their clutch master is inside and essentially is where a mechanical clutch rod would go, so is near vertical) They use the nearest front caliper to reverse bleed.

Take a suitable hose that is a snug fit on the bleeder screws connect the clutch slave bleeder to the caliper bleeder. Open the clutch slave bleeder at least 1/2 turn. Bleed the caliper through the clutch slave until all the bubbles are gone.

Two items (a) M-B clutch hydraulics use the brake system reservoir (b) it works better if the clutch supply line is at the upper fitting on the slave.

This also works on rear or mid engine hydraulic clutches (Fiat X1/9).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

This post was updated on .

I know the rear frame and springs are narrower.
*They came with Dana or Sterling as shown on the next page...
I'm just trying to point out that there is a unique part # for the C&C trucks and i don't think there's any chance that the 38G pickup tank will fit.
Those Spectra #s are for variations (small bung pre '85, big bung with inner vent retaining ring '85&86, and '87 up with the bigger bung but set for fill through the center and vent around the outside, no ring)

These trucks don't have any slave bleeder.
There's just an Allen set screw and the fluid pees out the end of the plastic slave. (Akebono used to sell a metal slave with an actual bleed nipple, but i haven't seen one of those in a decade)

I have one, and just fed a hose back up into the reservoir. Pump in a loop and you eventually get some pedal (enough to drive it and shake the bubbles loose)
Gary didn't believe me either, until he tried it.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

Jim - Yes, I was skeptical but driving around the neighborhood did bounce the bubbles out and, after several miles and lots of pumping of the pedal, all was good.

But I'm confused about the rear tank. You said "the C&C trucks have a unique rear tank for '85-86 E5TZ 9002-E". And while I see that PN in your snippet, I also see that it was used on the 85/86 F150/350's. And from what I remember they take the same tank shape/size as a Bronco, albeit smaller in capacity.

What am I missing?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 85 460 dual tanks

Administrator

Maybe I'm delirious?

I swear i could barely get my new tank in when i replaced it back around Halloween.
Perhaps the flanges are narrower on the C&C trucks and the space between rails is similar to pickups?
I know axles don't interchange because the spring perches are closer together.

The 32 gallon Bronco tanks are shorter front to back and really need a piece of angle to support the bash plate if you try to use them in a pickup.
At any rate Haystack needs a tank with the 3 5/8 bung for his sender so the Bronco tank is out.
And he wants a fill neck with the ring to support the vent tube so that means the F26-A and -E are out.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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