To Jet-Hot Or Not?

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To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
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Recently Jim suggested that I get my to-be headers for Big Blue Jet-Hot coated.  I forgot to respond to that, but let's do that in a separate thread rather than in Big Blue's Transformation as there's a remote chance that one or two people have grown weary of the never-ending saga.  

I'm planning to go with L&L headers, and probably these 79760FP's which run ~$600, probably plus shipping.  (Having said that, Jet-Hot says they sell headers already coated and I've started a conversation with them so will ask if they have some that fit BB.)  And the quick quote from Jet-Hot is $365, inc return shipping.

From what I've read there are really two advantages to coating the headers:

Much longer life to the headers as they aren't going to rust

Much lower heat emission, thereby reducing underhood temps as well as increasing efficiencies

Yes, there's another - the looks.  But while I've powder coated many things, I'm not too worried about the looks of the headers.

So, what are your thoughts?  Is it worth 50% more $ to reduce the temps and increase efficiency?  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Ford F834
Administrator
Gary, that’s a chunk of change... do they have any data to back up their claims? How much does it reduce heat? It’s not hard to validate that it does, but by how much? What is the amount of life extension over other coatings? I am not suspicious that their claims are false, but I do wonder about the magnitude of the benefit. Do you have any intentions of wrapping the pipes?
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
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Well, I was mistaken.  I'd guessed at the wrong length of headers, and I'd picked the wrong coating.  So the price is $561.  

I had a really good call with Debi at Jet-Coat, who knows her stuff.  First, I'd picked too short of headers and I'd picked the Classic coating.  But the longer headers I'm talking about would be $425 with the Classic coating.  However, that coating is "only" good to 1200 degrees, and when I said "EFI" she quickly informed me that sometimes that will drive the temp too high for the Classic coating.  Instead, she recommended the Offroad coating, which is good to 2000 degrees, and that would be $561 on long-tubes.

As for the temp reduction, the Classic polished coating reduces temps "up to 65%", while the Offroad coating reduces temps "40 - 43%" due to the lack of polish.  And this video seems to corroborate the 65%.

And I'm not planning to wrap the headers.

So, with the above I think I'm out of the Jet-Hot market.  But I don't know that I'm out of the ceramic coating market just yet.  I've called HPC Coatings in Oklahoma City and will see what they say.

Or, I might just media-blast them and do some kind of coating myself.  Suggestions, folks?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Ford F834
Administrator
I would at least price ceramic coating... that is what Justin at R&D does for all of his hot side pipe kits (he bought the equipment to do that and piston tops). The 2000* aerosol header paint from flame proof is pretty good stuff from what I’ve read but I have not used it myself. Ceramic would still be my choice if not prohibitively expensive.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Not sure what you mean by "ceramic".  The VHT paint is said to be ceramic, but that's probably not what you meant - right?

Does Justin do ceramic for others?

I'm reading up on ceramic coatings.  CermaKrome looks interesting.  I can do 500 degrees in my oven.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Ford F834
Administrator
I am not knowledgeable on these coatings Gary, but I know the stuff Justin uses on his head pipes, and especially piston tops, is different/better than what comes out of a spray can. I do not know if what he could provide is any different or better than what you may already be able to do in your oven, but he is a good guy to talk to and might have good advice if nothing else. I have not seen him use any chrome-like coatings though. He might be able to, but the parts I bought are more plain. The head pipes are flat black. The turbo exhaust housing is low gloss black. The pistons are an odd olive tan color. He does not specifically name coating service outside of pistons, but ask him. It’s a home/Garage business and he is generally willing to help people with their projects given some lead time.

http://www.idiperformance.com/purchase.html





SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

FuzzFace2
From what I heard of wrapping headers it is not the thing to do.
Because the header tubes are some what thin the wrap keeps the heat in as it is made to do but this heat hurts the tubes and they tend to crack.
I also hear the wrap keeps in moisture and they rust sooner but that could be the heat?

Unless I had to wrap to keep heat from another part I would not do it.
I also think on headers rusting out if not coated might be BS?
Most that have headers on a car or truck don't drive them as DD so now they have burned off the "paint" and then left sitting till driven maybe on weekends. This will have them rust faster then if used every day.
You will also find this on normal exh. pipes & mufflers if let to sit a lot will rust faster than if driven every day.
Just my .02

BTW how low will the headers hang below the frame of the truck?
Can you tuck the system up even or above the bottom of the frame?
I say this because you are building this for "over landing" so you don't want to get hung up on a low hanging exh. system.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six/T18 project
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

85lebaront2
Administrator
My 1966 Shelby was a DD for quite a while. When the original tri-y headers rusted through sometime in the 70s I replaced them with Hooker big tube (1-5/8" primaries) as that was recommended for 351W and Shelby engines. These went to a 3" collector and I used the Hooker Header Mufflers behind them. The "tailpipes" were angled to come out just in front of the traction bar front mounts. When I ran the car where I could have open exhausts I used a pair of 3" pipes from my best friend's ex-Traco Engineering Javelin race car. We found that ear plugs were good for 2 seconds a lap better time due to the noise level.

This car and my 1964 Falcon are why I will not put headers on Darth. I got very proficient at changing the gaskets at the heads. These were pre-ban asbestos ones and still would only last so long probably due to the fact that the entire exhaust system on each side was held up by the 8 3/8" bolts and a single support near the outer end of the pipes. One nice thing, the right side header would come out the top after the plug wires were removed, left side, no way, steering box and clutch cross shaft got in the way.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
L&L's were on Big Blue when I got him several years ago, and they didn't hang down low.  And other than the fact that the left one hit the frame, which I can correct by shimming the engine's mounts, I had no problems with them.  In fact, no blown gaskets, probably due to the 1/2" thick header flange.

That's why I'm going back with L&L's.  But I need to figure out if there is a good way to keep them from rusting and keep the heat from baking everything.

And as of now the outfit in OKC hasn't returned my call.  But I did send a note to Justin @ R&D to see what he recommends.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Gary,

Ceramic coating the inside of headers provides an insulator and a reflective surface.
Silver ceramic, chrome plating or stainless exteriors provide another reflective surface.
(Yes, shiny on the outside reflects heat to the inside)

You want to keep heat in the exhaust gasses for efficiency and flow as much as keeping underhood temps down.


Check out Calico Coatings.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Nothing Special
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Gary,

Ceramic coating the inside of headers provides an insulator and a reflective surface.
Silver ceramic, chrome plating or stainless exteriors provide another reflective surface.
(Yes, shiny on the outside reflects heat to the inside)

You want to keep heat in the exhaust gasses for efficiency and flow as much as keeping underhood temps down.


Check out Calico Coatings.
"Black bodies" both radiate and absorb heat better than light colored or shiny.  It's obvious that snow doesn't absorb heat like blacktop does, but there's a reason almost all radiators are painted black.

The flip side of this is what Jim is saying.  If black will get rid of heat better, the "less black" something can be the less heat it will get rid of.
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
There's a real reason old hot rods had all that chrome under the hood.
Emisstivity is a thing, a thing you should know about if you have a non-contact IR thermometer.

It wasn't just 'bling' like so much crap (pipe wrap) is today.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Got a couple of notes back from Justin of R&D IDI Performance.  He's the guy Jonathan suggested I contact.  He uses Cerakote products and suggested I give them a try as he's had good luck with them.  So I'm reading up on their stuff.

Also, Eastwood sells a paint for coating the inside of the exhaust system.  I'm pretty leery of this approach, but am still exploring.

And I do understand the idea of coating both the inside and out.  I've had enough physics and run enough experiments on emissivity & radiation to grasp the concept.

Bottom Line: I'm reluctant to branch off into coating with new-to-me materials for what will hopefully be a limited volume - the exhaust systems for both Big Blue and Dad's truck.  So will be reading up on who does this kind of stuff, including Calico, but would prefer someone local.  Suggestions welcome.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
You know Gary, it's not any different than dipping pottery in glaze and heating it in a kiln.

It's just that prep is paramount and the glaze is 'special'
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Jim - You are right, the prep is paramount and the glaze is special. In fact, that's a good lead-in to my report on what I've found.

I've typed and/or talked with a lot of people and have found this:
  1. DIY: Justin @ R&D uses Cerakote and recommended it to me. However, he doesn't do the interior of exhaust pipes as he doesn't have a way to prep them, and prep'ing requires blasting with aluminum oxide to give a texture. So, without the inside being coated the effectiveness is limited. And the up-front cost starts to mount up as you need a fairly nice detail gun to apply the material. And the material itself is $110/quart. And then there's the curing, which has to be done at a minimum of 500 degrees and closer to 700 for an hour.
  2. Calico Coatings: I got a quote from them for $280, not including shipping. But, they don't do the interior either, saying "It is only coated on the outside because we cannot get the inside prepped well enough for the coating to properly adhere."
  3. CCPCoatings: I got a quote for $295-325 plus shipping. And I don't think that includes the inside.
  4. OKC: I talked to two other companies in OKC that used to do ceramic coating, but don't any longer. And both recommended HPC.
  5. HPC (Jet-Hot): So I called HPC and Roger answered "HPC Jet-Hot." Turns out they merged a few years ago. As previously reported I talked with Debi at their CA facility and got quotes from her. But today Roger, the plant manager, talked with me for 30 minutes. I explained my application and he told me about their products: 1300; 2000; & 2500, with those being the names as well as the temps they can withstand. Roger agreed with Debi that in my application the 1300 might melt. And while the 2500 has the best of the properties it is also essentially porcelain and can chip. So Roger said he thinks the 2000 is the one for me. And, if I come down to pick them up the price for coating them both inside and out is $450. Plus, he'll give me a tour.

Having said all that, I'm leaning strongly to HPC/Jet-Hot. I don't want to take the time nor spend the money to get into doing the coating myself, especially since I only have two sets of headers that I might want to do. And the other outfits don't do the inside, so they don't compare with HPC/Jet-Hot and yet their prices of ~$350 - 375 inc shipping are about 80% of HPC's.

But, you might say "Wait! You have to go after them." However, Roger said they are less than a mile from the outlet mall in OKC - and Janey loves to go there. Plus, they aren't far from a place that is famous for chicken-fried steaks, and we've been wanting to check them out for some time. So, we have a cunning plan.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
I like "WE"!

And I LOVE  the fact that Janey not only tolerates your madness, she seems to actually encourage it!!!    😈

😖 #+$@¢*© autocorrect!!!!
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I told Janey a few days ago that I was exploring the DIY option on coating the headers, and what the cost of the Jet-Hot approach was.

Today I explained what I'd learned about how the DIY approach seemed to be inferior to the Jet-Hot, and told her that I was considering going with the latter because it seemed better and would save me a lot of time, but that the place is less than a mile from the outlet mall in OKC.  At that point she was bought in, but when I mentioned the chicken-fried steak place it was "do it!".

Yes, she not only tolerates it, she does encourage it.  And remember, she is the one that suggested we take Big Blue to Colorado next year and drive the trails around Ouray.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

grumpin
Keeper! But, you already knew that! Good on you two. Enjoy the blessings!
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 Suburban LT K2500 454 4L80E
2000 Nissan Xterra XE 4WD 3.3 RE4R01A
Oregon
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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
grumpin wrote
Keeper! But, you already knew that! Good on you two. Enjoy the blessings!
Yes, Dane, I did already know that.  I am truly blessed, and I thank God for her daily.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: To Jet-Hot Or Not?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Today's update: The headers are on order and HPC Jet-Hot is expecting them.  Now for the details.

I spoke with Roger again at HPC Jet-Hot and found that the lead time is running 3 weeks right now.  UGH!  The issue is that racing season is on us and everyone needs their headers done.  But he thinks they'll get it down to 2 weeks soon.

Then I spoke to Alan (x303) at L&L and ordered the headers.  These are the same headers as I had, but just have a different flange.  So they'll bolt to the exhausts I have for start-up and break-in of the cam.

However, they build the headers to suit, and I don't want EGR so they'll leave that fitting off.  And they don't put O2 sensor bungs in the headers.  Instead they put them in the reducer flange, and are going to put bungs in both for me since EEC-V uses one on each side.  (It'll also use a third one behind the cat, but since I don't have a cat I have that one turned off in the ECU.)

Having said that, Alan wasn't aware that the '96 & '97 CA 460's got EEC-V.  He was in CA in '94 to get CA certification on their headers and he well remembers only one O2 sensor so was surprised when I asked for two.

Also, he explained why I didn't have leaks with the gaskets nor loosened bolts - the 1/2" thick flanges.  Anything less and the tubes heat the flange up too much and warp it.  That causes the bolts to back out and it causes leaks.

Anyway, their lead time is running about a week, so I'm looking at about a month before getting the headers.  Guess I'd better work on other things on Big Blue, and there are plenty of them to do.  

Oh, and now for a bit of farcical thinking.  I found a statement that says the coating increases HP by 3%.  If you assume that it also increases efficiency by the same amount and assume that the non-coated MPG will be 13, then the coated will be 13.4 MPG.  And, with $3/gallon gasoline the coating will pay for itself in 66,666 miles.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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