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Still the same problem with EFI

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Gary Lewis

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

I think you may be ready for a real live test. Good luck!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

mat in tn

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by ReneH

I do agree with Gary. time to run this thing. test the product not the theory.
as far as the camshaft goes. the specs on that cam are more lift than the factory cam yet it is close enough in size parameters to be marketed as stock replacement for a 351w. not a 302. remember that you have a modified 302. not a 351. there are dynamics here that exceed cubic inches.
poor man's 351? kind of. it will work differently actually. you may have been able to build a 351 cheaper. but building out of a 302 has performance benefits in the correct vehicle. it's lighter. spins faster. physically smaller (although not much).
had you built this as a carbureted vehicle then you would have been driving it already. and you may have spent more on wiring than a carb would have cost you. I do build both and do like both but I really love simplicity. and a 347 loves a carburetor!
but a 351w is bigger, heavier, and will be a much more "heavy duty" engine. larger crank journals which means more bearing surface to spread the load out across a wider area and it also has a larger oil pump drive shaft.

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Thanks Gary, I will do...I don't know if I'm able to within the week or at the weekend.

René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by mat in tn

OK, you are right. My "description" was a bit faulty. Sure, I know that there are more differences as only the displacement, as you also have listed. It was not my intension to tune up the engine in this way it is now. But as I have had to rework the engine I have done these modifications like the stroker kit, cam and ECU to better adopt the stroker kit.

Here in germany it's very hard to get parts for 351W and it's much harder to get a block...so I stayed with my block. And you are also right regarding the carburetor, but you have to know that this car will be a dayli driver, so also in the winter. I already have two carburetored cars and wanted to try something new for this.
In my opinion the 80th Ford engines with the early injection-systems are the last ones you can easily rework and repair by your own.

So I also hope the injection saves some fuel...today my wife has paid 1.90 Euro for one liter of 95 octane gasoline...so...you can calculate the cost for a full 150 liter Bronco fuel tank...

I will drive 99 percent on normal streets. So my 4WD is only needed some days in winter. But I have to remark, that we haven't have snow since these days...

A bunch more engine power is nice, also if only for some overtake maneuver, but I never wanna build a dragster...at least not with this car...

I have bought the truck mainly for driving into holidays with my wife and the two kids. Modern cars, also if very big outside, have no space inside. The Bronco is optimal for this. I have had some new vehicles in the past. My last were two Ford Focus ST. Modern engine 250 PS out of 122cui...I could not drive this car lower than 23,5 mpg...
That's what they call "efficient". And while paying 400 EUR leasing per month and 600 Euros insurance per year...you can calculate by your self what I have payed after 3 years of leasing time...yes over 16,000 Euro. I've bought the Bronco for 17,000 Euro...so let's say there are some more mpg left to reach this yearly expenses...

So enough of my story...I will update you after the first run with new parts and wiring harness...

mat in tn

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

I believe we are saying much of the same things. even with the differences in translation. yes, efficiency is getting more important all the time. that said, I drive these trucks daily all year long. and mostly with a modified 5.0/302. with efi. I love it. my best mpg truck for sure! around town I get 15-17 mpg depending on how I drive. but on the highway, I was able to squeeze 19 mpg last fall driving to Maine and back. approx. 2k miles. I do not expect you to get the same from a 347. simple volumetric / afr differences. and then gearing etc.

Gary Lewis

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

I'm sure you'll be able to overtake easily, but watch out for the black Merc in the left lane. Every time I got in the left lane on the Autobahn that guy was on my rear bumper like a flash.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Yeah, welcome to Germany! That's why I hate to drive on German highways. The people here really think it makes a difference to drive 120 mph or even more and get faster to their aim. It's really no fun.
On the eight lane all seems to sneak and on the left all driving a race. I feel much better in Switzerland or France. It's no matter about driving very fast and get low at the construction sides every 80 miles or driving constant all the time. The only difference is the mpg over the whole distance...
I want to reach my aim in one piece and also chilled and not sweated...

85lebaront2

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, you should have heard Matt's half brother relating an experience he had on the Autobahn. He was driving the 1982 S10 V6 4 speed his Father had given him while he was over there. He was cruising at about max speed for the S10 and came up on a roadster just sort of minding his own business, Jeff had just figured out what it was when up comes a "whale tail" Porsche who immediately starts trying to get the roadster to race him. After a bit, the roadster driver gives in and indicates he'll race the Porsche.

Jeff said the final clue was when the roadster driver shifted back into 2nd as he could see his right shoulder go down a bit then up as he went up over and down to get into 2nd (they're running about 80-85 mph at this point). He said the roadster driver signaled he was ready and the Porsche floored it, a bit of darker smoke, slight turbo whine, instantly drowned out by 7 liters of dual Holley Ford FE engine, as Jeff put it, dad, it sounded like your Shelby only louder.

He and his father asked around and found the Cobra was owned by a German citizen who had only recently gotten it back after a full restoration, including a complete engine overhaul, blueprint, balance etc. by Holman and Moody. Car was one of the 427SC models.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

Bill - That's quite an experience! I can only imagine what Holman and Moody did to it. My brother had a boat with a 351W in it and H&M logos all over it. That was the strongest boat we were ever around. He loved to bet a skier that he could take the rope away from them, and he never lost a bet.

So if a 5.8L was that strong, a 7.0L made for a roadster must have been something!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by ReneH

Just to check, you do know these fire all injectors at the same time for every pulse right?

I am saying this because cylinder 1 will have the injector fire four times with three firings being when the valve is closed.

I had to explain this to a guy at work with a '86 F150 I was finding which injectors were stuck from old gas, they couldnt believe every injector was firing every stroke for each cylinder.

"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2

85lebaront2

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, those engines were derived from the NASCAR and LeMans engines. The cast aluminum valve covers read "Cobra LeMans". 427 (actually 425) ci, high riser with dual 660 cfm Holleys or a single 850 cfm Holley. Since the power train (engine and Toploader) were for a Galaxy, the shifter sat so far back that Shelby put the stick angled forward, hence the essentially up and down shifter action.

Basically automotive overkill. If you watched Gumball Rally, the only two cars that were used in filming that didn't require "tweaking" or flat out hopping up from stock were the Cobra and Ferrari, both were stock. They actually blew the engine in the Cobra during the LA river sequence, hit a really slick section, over revved it and dropped a valve, Holman and Moody managed to come up with the needed parts to rebuild it. Cars weighed just a little over 2900 lbs and the engine was originally built to push a Galaxy 200 mph at Talladega.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Yeah, very interesting stories! So you can get out very much more than stock of each engine. Sure, there are some that gives much better basics than others, but with enough modifications or a complete rebuild by some brilliant technician, it's awsome, what's possible...that's why I love drag racing. If you get in the details what they have to do before every start, you'll see it's like riding a cannon-ball...full of nitro methane...

And what I like most, It's mostly not about the newest electronics like in formula one...the basic are old, reliable engine designs covered with knowlegde, experience and the right "feeling" how to setup.

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

OK...also the MFI-ECUs like mine 1989? Or do you mean only while cranking?
Because this is what I've read in the book from which I have posted the screenshots...

85lebaront2

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

Rene' you would have really liked the dragster we (Preston Carburetion) ran back in the mid 70s. It had a Chevrolet 292 ci truck 6 cyl with a highly modified head, running 3 45DCOE Weber carburetors.

We were at a drag strip in Budd's Creek Maryland for a meet. Driver made his first trial pass, I watched his launch, observing the exhaust color from the headers, listened to the sound and felt the engine sounded "flat" as it wound up in high gear. I had told the driver to do a "clean cut" at the end of the run. Pushed him back to the pits and pulled a couple of plugs, wiped my finger in the end of the collectors to see how much soot we had. I then removed a jet cover and took a main emulsion tube and jets out, looked at the air jet size and told Fred Pennington (business partner) to give me one size smaller air jets. Installed them in all three carburetors and the car went quite a bit faster, elapsed time wasn't much lower but trap speed was much faster.

Someone pitted next to us came over and asked how I tuned the Webers without all the stuff most people carried when running them. I told him it was a matter of understanding what effect each of the components in the mixture control did.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Hey Bill, that's exactly what I mean! Experience and the feeling are the basics. That's nothing you can do with modern cars. There's no heart inside you can feel!

If you have pictures of your build...I'm interested to see...

I hope today (here it is 08:15 pm) I'm fit enough to wire the last things, install the HEGO and try to start the engine...before I will check the plugs if they are still wet and clean them before, cause the last starts have flooded the engine...
It's also possible that it gets a bit rough, cause as replacing the original distributor I have only done this with a mark to find the approximate position...

I will keep you updated...

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

So my today's work was to install the HEGO...now why does it has two black wires? About one ohms between both...

I have marked one of the black with a tape...only to be sure...what does the colors of the cable mean?

Here you see my old EGO...that's carbon deposits of the rich run...

Here is my cable distribution for injectors, fuel pump circuit and HEGO:

Tomorrow or Friday evening, I hope I'll be fit enough to connect the rest and start the engine...

Rusty_S85

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

In reply to this post by ReneH

ReneH wrote

OK...also the MFI-ECUs like mine 1989? Or do you mean only while cranking?
Because this is what I've read in the book from which I have posted the screenshots...

1985 to I believe 1996 when they switched over to sequential fuel injection. I know up to 1990 the EFI was batch fire. They do it during cranking as well as during normal running.

If you attach a noid light you would see flashing happening quite a bit faster on these era EFIs than on later sequeltial EFI systems.

85lebaront2

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

Rene', black wires are the heater, no polarity involved. Blue is O2 signal (goes to pin #29 of the computer). White is signal ground (goes to pin #49 of the computer).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

Rusty, the 302 trucks went MAF/SEFI in 1994, 351 in 1995 and 460 CA spec in 1996, 300 went SEFI in 1995 CA spec. Other than 49 state 460 trucks (and not all of them) everything was pretty much MAF/SEFI by 1996. MT and C6 equipt trucks stayed Bank Fired much later than the 4R7x and E4OD models.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: Still the same problem with EFI

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Hi Bill, Ok that means one of the black going to ignition key, the other one to GND.
O2-signal to #29 and the white cable also to GND.

As I don't have a canister purge solenoid, but routed out this pin from the ECU, I thought about to switch a relay with it, that deactivates the heater, cause as I have read in the book, the CANP pin will be switched, when the engine is warm...so if the heater plus will be connected to a relay NC pin, it will be switched off, when engine is warm and CANP pin will ground the coil of the relay...what do you think?

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