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School me on transmission options

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JimJam300

School me on transmission options

The time is approaching when I will have to choose what to do with my SROD transmission and it’s sort of a difficult unit to find discussion on. Many expensive things hinge on my choice of transmission, and I don’t want to re-order carpet or something if I change it later. Any opinion I’ve been able to find has been on Mustang forums where the consensus is that it’s crap. Mind you I haven’t driven my Bronco more than 1 mile so I haven’t been able to form my own opinion, but mine leaks and will need work and I don’t know if it’s the right transmission for my needs. Knowing that it’s a transplant from a 351-equipped truck (code RUG-EE) tells me the original already died being powered by the lowly 300 inline six, and this may be the reason my Bronco has been off the road since 1996.

My needs are for long-distance cruising with fuel economy in mind and I’d also like having the option to tow a small trailer if I ever need to. I know the SROD is ideal for the former, but not the latter unless someone can prove otherwise. I also know that these needs scream ZF-5, but converting to a hydraulic clutch sounds like a lot of work and I’m a rather inexperienced mechanic. Cruising at 70mph on flat ground is very necessary for where I live, any slower and I’ve got big rigs trying to pass me. To give a comparison, I thought my 1990 Ranger 4.0 OHV with M5ODR1 trans and 3.73 gears on 31” tires was somewhat comfortable at a sustained 75mph getting 16-19mpg. My 300cid Bronco is 3.00 gears on 31” tires. Both have similar torque, 300cid makes peak much lower and has 50 less horsepower.

So as far as I know, my options are:
T-18/T-19, ZF-5, M5ODR2, modified Tremec T-5, or a modified “true” toploader (David Kee Toploaders start at $2400 which seems nice for a new unit). Any range I’m not satisfied with I could supplement with a gear splitter, but that’s another $2500 and more work. I’m not afraid to change out my gears either, I’m just about to remove the rear end and get it rebuilt anyhow.

1982 Bronco restomod in progress: Built 4.9L, T19 4spd, 9" 3.00 rear w/ Eaton TrueTrac, 31" tires, fuel injection soon
https://www.youtube.com/@jimjamauto

Rembrant

Re: School me on transmission options

I have the M5OD-R2 5spd in both trucks. The 84 is a 2wd and the 80 is a 4x4. I quite like the trans myself, but it seems most people want to heavier 3/4 ton ZF5 trans. Anyway, I can’t help with you decision much, but wanted to let you know that a hydraulic clutch swap is pretty easy. Don’t let that slow you down. It’s a little extra work and expense, but it’s not a big deal.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

In reply to this post by JimJam300

I agree that a hydraulic clutch swap is pretty easy. But I'd want to reinforce the firewall if I did it, although the small plate would be enough.

Big Blue had the T-19 when I got him, and I've had other trucks with the NP435, and I'm here to tell you that I don't like a tranny w/o an overdrive. I highly recommend an OD..

However, the ZF5 is a truck transmission. I don't know that I'd like it in a lighter truck than my F250. Yes, I had it in Dad's F150 and it worked fine, but it was old and needed rebuilding, so the syncros were shot. So I had it rebuilt and put it in Big Blue, and it is still a truck transmission and is slow to shift. If you try to hurry it you are going to hurt something, and they aren't cheap to rebuild.

I don't know for sure how an M5OD-R2 shifts, but what little I've heard is that it is a smooth tranny. And I believe they are up to pulling a small trailer. Plus, they may be less expensive to have rebuilt than a ZF5, which cost me $1000 several years ago.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

JimJam300

Re: School me on transmission options

I liked the M5ODR1 in my Ranger. It was sloppy because the shifter bushings were shot the entire time I had it, but even in that state it felt much more precise than the SROD which feels like the ancient 4spd in my dad’s 1959 Austin-Healey (but worse because that car has a factory electronic overdrive).

1982 Bronco restomod in progress: Built 4.9L, T19 4spd, 9" 3.00 rear w/ Eaton TrueTrac, 31" tires, fuel injection soon
https://www.youtube.com/@jimjamauto

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

A Healy 3000? Boy, do I have a story about a transmission in one of those! But it is your thread, so...

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

JimJam300

Re: School me on transmission options

Gary Lewis wrote

A Healy 3000? Boy, do I have a story about a transmission in one of those! But it is your thread, so...

Next time I see my dad I can entertain him with your tale, so by all means.

His is a Healey 100-6, it was the in-between model of the 100 and 3000

1982 Bronco restomod in progress: Built 4.9L, T19 4spd, 9" 3.00 rear w/ Eaton TrueTrac, 31" tires, fuel injection soon
https://www.youtube.com/@jimjamauto

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

Went to school at Kansas State and a buddy had a Healy 300. The tranny went out and he waited 6 months for the parts to come in from the UK. Finally he got his car back but the mechanic said he needed to break the synchros in by double-clutching. So he asked me what that was. I explained and he tossed me the keys and said "Show me." So we went for a ride.

At the end of the ride, as we came to a stop I double-clutched into first and he said "I would never have done THAT!" I asked why. "Because first isn't synchronized." I saw my life flash in front of my eyes. But, it had gone in w/o a snick of any kind, so I just smiled and tossed the keys back.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rembrant

Re: School me on transmission options

In reply to this post by JimJam300

Gary Lewis wrote

I don't know for sure how an M5OD-R2 shifts, but what little I've heard is that it is a smooth tranny. And I believe they are up to pulling a small trailer. Plus, they may be less expensive to have rebuilt than a ZF5, which cost me $1000 several years ago.

tcbaklash wrote

I liked the M5ODR1 in my Ranger. It was sloppy because the shifter bushings were shot the entire time I had it, but even in that state it felt much more precise than the SROD which feels like the ancient 4spd in my dad’s 1959 Austin-Healey (but worse because that car has a factory electronic overdrive).

The poor old M5OD-R2 gets a bit of a bad rap in internet dogma these days, and it's at least a bit unfounded in my opinion. People call them weak (and "junk"), but what nobody ever mentions is that they're usually referring to a transmission that is now 3 decades old, and often times with several hundred thousand miles on them. Ford pumped these transmissions out by the hundreds of thousands from 1988-onward, and for every guy you see complaining that they're junk, you'll read about another guy that put 300k miles on his and it is still working fine.

(Gary, I'll compare it to the old "Swiss Cheese" frames that everybody says are junk. They were perfectly fine in their day...but they might be junk after 40 Ohio or Michigan salty winters...lol).

One big advantage of the M5OD-R2 over the ZF-5 is going to be availability. From what I understand, the ZF-5 is especially hard to come by with the SBF bellhousing...and even harder when it's a 4x4.

I like how the M5OD shifts...it's definitely heavier/harder shifting than a car transmission, but lighter/easier than the ZF-5. I think the "tightness" of it compared to the old SROD is the fact it is top entry...no external linkages, etc like a typical top loading transmission. Replacement shifter bushing kits are cheap and easy to install.

My 2 cents worth;).

ratdude747

Re: School me on transmission options

Nitpick: the M5OD is made by Mazda, not Ford.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

When someone says something is "junk" on Facebook I usually move on as I know s/he isn't to be believed. They say the same thing about the 351M's and 400's, which is not true. So it doesn't surprise me that they say that of the M5OD-R2. But if I were building a mild Bronco or F-150 I'd seriously consider that tranny. And I'd look for a rebuilt one.

On the other hand if I wanted a ZF I'd buy a rebuilt one with a warranty. And I'd buy from Midwest Transmissions. I've bought parts from them several times and they've always steered me right. And another guy on the forum bought one from them and it is working well.

On that page you will see that currently a small-block ZF5-42 4wd is $1367. But don't miss the $1000 core charge, which means if you don't have an old one to send in it'll cost that much. So you'll have to add the cost of a used tranny, and it gets expensive. However, I bought my ZF for $500, found that the syncros were bad and it sometimes wouldn't shift into reverse, which turned out to be a broken reverse gear. So added another $1000 in rebuilt and parts, and got no warranty. Which may be an issue as the 3rd gear syncro isn't very good, although it may be wearing in.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rembrant

Re: School me on transmission options

In reply to this post by ratdude747

ratdude747 wrote

Nitpick: the M5OD is made by Mazda, not Ford.

Oh yes, I'm aware of that. When I said Ford "pumped them out" I just meant that they were sold by Ford, that's all.

JimJam300

Re: School me on transmission options

Gents,

I actually just dug up a thread regarding a similar discussion
http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/#nabble-td30591

User Zach 1981 Flareside mentioned he replaced his SROD with a Tremec TKO for $3000 which honestly doesn’t sound THAT bad considering I will pay easily $1700 for just a M5OD and rebuild plus part hunting and drive shaft work. My transfer case is a NP308, does that work?

1982 Bronco restomod in progress: Built 4.9L, T19 4spd, 9" 3.00 rear w/ Eaton TrueTrac, 31" tires, fuel injection soon
https://www.youtube.com/@jimjamauto

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

I think you mean NP208, but the various transfer cases easily swap. I've moved an NP208 to where a BW1356 was, and put a BW1345 where an NP208 was.

As for the tranny question, I'm not familiar with the TKO so will leave that to others to answer. But the $3K price is a little higher than I would have expected since a rebuilt ZF5 is going for ~$1900 + core. So if you assume that it costs $500 to get a ZF core you are at $2400. Maybe part of that difference is shipping?

Still, if a TKO is a good tranny with the right gears and you are happy with $3K then go for it. But I'd compare gear ratios were I you. You can do that by going to Documenation/Driveline/Calculators and entering the info in the far right Other column towards the bottom.

And ask others what they think of their gear ratios. For instance, I believe that 3rd gear on the ZF5 is slightly too tall if you are running 33" tires and 3.55 gears. Big Blue just doesn't like making city street corners in 3rd, but used to be quite happy doing the same corners in 3rd with the T-19. In other words, the ZF's 1.61 3rd gear is too tall while the T-19's 1.79 was just right.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: School me on transmission options

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This post was updated on .

The TKO is a good gearbox.
Bill has a TKO 600RR in his Cobra kit behind a strong 347.

Getting the right input shaft for your mechanical clutch will take time.
And you might find getting the shifter in the right place is a problem if you have a bench seat.
And you will have to come up with an output yoke that can work with the stock Ford coupler.

If you purchase an M5R2 you know the parts can be found, and a shop manual is available to cover it.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ratdude747

Re: School me on transmission options

The TKO is also well documented. Here's a video on rebuilding such (which includes where to get paper manuals and the like):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YBeFZzv83Y

That guy does a lot of good manual transmission videos, especially Muncies and T5's. From other channels who work with him I've heard, despite some grievances, he recommends the TKO for new purchased >300HP applications (which is roughly where a well built T5 caps out at).

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

ArdWrknTrk

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

Yeah, but it isn't going to get replaced, or have repair parts at the dealer or corner parts store.

And the "All stock", "being restored" 300 I-6 is never coming close to 300hp.

Now, I don't own a 4.9 truck -or- Bronco, so maybe I missed something?
But a TKO seems about as far from stock as you can get and still function?
It certainly isn't going to slip right in and use a stock mount, crossmember, stick, floor plate or carpet.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ratdude747

Re: School me on transmission options

Missed that context... Stock 4.9, I agree, the M5OD will be fine.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

FuzzFace2

Re: School me on transmission options

Will the TKO hook to a transfer case or only 2WD?
If you can I would go with the M5R2 in the 4x4 mode.
I think Cory's in the 4x2 truck he found from someone selling it as a ZF5 and was in a F250 truck think with a 351. So it would work with a 300 six.

When I knew I needed to do something with my T18 4x2 running a 2.75 rear gear and 29" tall tires with my 300 six, I wanted to go over drive also.
Checking all over for a ZF5 and knowing if used most likely need a rebuild and no core for a rebuilt I was looking at $3000+ shipping. I would also need to come up with all the cross members, floor pan cover, switch to hydl. clutch and drive shaft.

I was lucky and found someone selling a NP435, I like the granny first gear for pulling heavy loads like my car trailer, but still no over drive.
After looking to add OD there was Gear Vender or Advance Adaptor, I went with AA as it was cheaper and can split all the gears to help pull heavy loads when needed.

So far I love the AA OD, have not pulled any heavy loads yet, but most of the time I am only using it for OD but have split 3rd gear at times.
I have since heard that AA has stopped making them, I got mine about a year ago. I don't know if it is because of the virus, I had to wait a long time for mine because of it, of they just don't have to volume needed to keep making them?

So that only leaves the GV over drive to use at this time.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

JimJam300

Re: School me on transmission options

Looks like it’s divorced transfer case only. There are no other tailpieces I could find other than what comes with the transmission.

I think I will go with the M5OD. I have found a place nearby that sells rebuilds for $1000 with a warranty. And yeah my engine is going to remain stock or else I gotta figure out how to pass CA emissions every other year, so no need for anything stronger.

1982 Bronco restomod in progress: Built 4.9L, T19 4spd, 9" 3.00 rear w/ Eaton TrueTrac, 31" tires, fuel injection soon
https://www.youtube.com/@jimjamauto

Gary Lewis

Re: School me on transmission options

Administrator

I think you'll be happy with that choice. And for $1k with a warranty you can't go wrong.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile