Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

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Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

BigDav782
Going to start more-seriously troubleshooting my truck that recently decided it didn't want to start, and have read through chapter 5 of the EVTM a number of times.  But I'm stuck on one detail that is perhaps silly: do all the checks on pages 32-34 apply to my truck that has EEC-IV?  The headings appear to make it look like they only apply to trucks that are DS-II.

Thanks!
Dave
'85 F150, I6, 4wd, 3 speed automatic
Hopkins, MN (Twin Cities)
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Gary Lewis
Administrator
You did not say which of the three EVTM's (1981, 1985, or 1986) you are referencing, but I'm going to guess that it is the '86 as pages 32 - 34 seem to match your question.

I've copied the first page here to make reference easier.  See in the middle-top where it says Ignition-EEC IV and directly below that it says See Electronic Engine Control.  You need to go to that section of the EVTM.



Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

BigDav782
Thanks Gary.  But there aren't any troubleshooting steps in the EEC section of the EVTM - so how am I to start diagnosing a no-spark condition?  I've already disconnected the battery terminals in an attempt to check their condition, so I don't anticipate I can get any codes at this point.  
'85 F150, I6, 4wd, 3 speed automatic
Hopkins, MN (Twin Cities)
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The TFI ignition works very similarly to the DS-II ignition.  There's a pickup module in the distributor, just like DS-II.  The signal from it goes to the ECU instead of the DS-II module, and the ECU triggers the TFI coil that is very similar to the DS-II coil except it sits on the distributor instead of the engine.

So I'd start by checking to see if you even have spark.  Pull a plug wire and put an old plug in it and lay the plug against the engine.  Crank the engine and watch for spark.

I don't know if you have EEC-III or IV, but there's a very complex set of testing instructions for the IV here: http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/electronic-engine-control-eec.html.  Perhaps they will help?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

BigDav782
Thanks Gary.  EEC-IV, and I don't have spark at the plugs or at the distributor (used an inline spark tester in between several plugs, and then also in between coil and distributor).  Truck was running OK until it all of a sudden died and won't start.  

'85 F150, I6, 4wd, 3 speed automatic
Hopkins, MN (Twin Cities)
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Then use that testing procedure as best you can w/o the fancy tools.  Don't miss the PIP that gives crank info.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
The signal from it goes to the...
ICM on the base of the distributor - not to the EEC.  The best diagnostic procedure for TFI-IV '85-93 is Haynes Ch.5 (usually Sec.5 or 7, depending on edition).

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

BigDav782
Went through this procedure and believe the PIP is bad, as you suspected Gary.  Is that something that can be replaced on its own, or new distributor?  

If the latter, any tips?
'85 F150, I6, 4wd, 3 speed automatic
Hopkins, MN (Twin Cities)
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
Mark the distributor base to the block before loosening the clamp bolt, and mark the rotor to the bowl as the last gear tooth clears the cam gear.

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by BigDav782
Yes, the pickup in the dizzy can be replaced.  But it may be almost as cheap, and much easier, to put a remanufactured distributor in.

If you do the latter do as Steve said and mark the dizzy and block and then transfer the mark on the old dizzy to the new dizzy.  And mark on the dizzy you take out where the rotor is pointing before you pull it.  When you go back in with the dizzy you'll have to start several degrees CCW because as the dizzy goes down the angled gears mesh and rotate the rotor.  And you want to end up with the rotor pointing right were it did and the distributor going back where the other one was, mark to mark.

And the reason it is easier to go with a new/reman'd dizzy is that getting the pickup out can be fiddly.  The reluctor, the gear-shaped wheel, has to come out and to get it out you have to pry up on it, gently, from two sides at the same time.  And you don't want to break it.  Plus, as you bring it up there's a roll pin that is in a slot to keep the reluctor located on the shaft, and it is easy to drop the roll pin in the dizzy.

Once the reluctor is out the pickup can come out and the new one put in.  Then put the reluctor back, with the roll pin in to locate it.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Steve83
Steve, ICM was moved from the base of the distributor to the inside rear of the left front fender starting in 1990 due to engine heat causing failures. On the EEC-IV the PIP (profile Ignition Pickup) goes from the distributor to the EEC, then is returned to the ICM via the SPOUT wire. With the SPOUT disconnected the system reverts to triggering of the leading edge of the shutter in the distributor.

For further information, there are actually two signals that come from the PIP, one is a leading edge trigger which is a crank pulse since it occurs X times per distributor revolution, where X = number of cylinders. The second is vane width pulse, which is a cam position pulse. The narrow vane on the TFI/EFI distributors is for number 1 cylinder. On most truck systems this isn't super critical as it fires the bank one injectors, bank two being fired 180° later I believe. On a sequential injection system, such as the later Windsor and 300 engines use, it starts the firing order sequence for the injectors. This is why "clocking" the plug wires to correct an improper distributor installation is not a good idea.
Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
85lebaront2 wrote
...inside rear of the left front fender starting in 1990...
I haven't worked on many '90-91 trucks, so I'm not sure about that.  I've always known WHY it moved, but I thought it moved in '92.  Haynes seems to agree with you, though.
85lebaront2 wrote
On the EEC-IV the PIP (profile Ignition Pickup) goes from the distributor to the...
ICM.  Every time, in all ignition systems that have a separate ICM of any kind.

And you're confusing the functionality of the early TFI-IV push-start SPOUT with that of the later TFI-IV CCD SPOUT.  This caption explains both systems, and why the change occurred:



I've never studied the firing of bank-fired injectors in detail, but I always assumed each bank was fired each time ONE of its cylinders was on the intake stroke (intake valve open).  Next time I have a noid light handy, I'll try to remember to check how many times it flashes if I spin the distributor once.

I know there's an index vane on the PIP wheel, but I've never read anything that says the ICM does anything with it, including sending that index on the SPOUT to tell an EEC-IV when it's on cyl. 1.  But that might be another reason for the switch to CCD, which DOES send the falling edge to the EEC - so it can fire sequential injectors.  I'm just not sure about push-start.

I do know that I can't detect any difference from behind the wheel running a CCD truck on a push-start ICM; nor on a push-start truck running a CCD ICM.
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

85lebaront2
Administrator
Steve, I am very familiar with the different varieties of Ford ICMs, if you look at the diagrams, yes, EEC-IV systems through 1994 used the "push start" ICM, starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced. On all the Ford EFI systems on trucks the PIP signal goes to the ICM, but, the EEC also receives the signal so the spark advance can be established. Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it to the proper advance for the next cylinder.

The EEC is using the RPM to determine the number of milliseconds the pulse through the SPOUT wire needs to be delayed. Example, cyl #1 pulse is received, next cylinder in order is #5, so desired advance is 35° #1 is 90° ahead of #5, SPOUT signal needs to go out 55° after the #1 PIP signal.

The "push start" uses a signal from circuit 32 (R/LB) to tell the ICM to use the maximum dwell for a hot cranking spark. In 1995 this terminal on the ICM (pin 4 on all) became IDM out from Start Signal In. These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD and both distributor and remote mount styles were made.

Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

BigDav782
Knowing that my dizzy needs to be replaced, and the carburetor needs to be rebuilt...is it time to just do the duraspark conversion?  Is there a write up anywhere on this or just lots of reading through various posts?
'85 F150, I6, 4wd, 3 speed automatic
Hopkins, MN (Twin Cities)
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
85lebaront2 wrote
...starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced...
No, it appeared in 5.0L trucks mid-year of '93, as that diagram shows.
85lebaront2 wrote
Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it...
That's not how Ford says it works.
85lebaront2 wrote
These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD...
That does NOT apply to all aftermarket ICMs.  Some makers just molded them all in gray.
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

85lebaront2
Administrator
I will put it this way,
(a) you are correct as far as I can tell on the introduction on the 5.0L.
(b) I am quoting what I was told by Core Tuning as regards to my EEC-V system.
(c) I was only referring to Motorcraft as I personally have had some bad experiences with aftermarket ICMs.

So tell me how does an ignition PIP generated at 10° BTDC get moved to 35° BTDC? Time machine maybe?
Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
85lebaront2 wrote
So tell me how...?
I already did, years before you asked.  It's in that caption.  If you want to know, read it.

EEC-V is very different from EEC-IV.  Most EEC-V doesn't even use an ICM; they're mostly COP.  Some of the VERY-early ones were EDIS, and I think only the '96 F/Bronco was EEC-V (compliant, though not really) TFI-IV.  I'm not sure about E-series.
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

85lebaront2
Administrator
If the 1996 Bronco was under 8500 GVWR it would have been OBD-II compliant. There are a lot of the early EEC-V systems out there that still used a distributor. Any F or E series under 8500 GVWR that still used any of the older engines (4.9L, 5.0L or 5.8L) built for the 1996 up MY would be EEC-V.

The over 8500 GVWR trucks could (and many were) be OBD-I and still using the EEC-IV system, however, California set the break point at 14000 GVWR which gives those of us with the 7.5L (460) a source of parts (scarce) and wiring + an MAF size to do what I did. I was told by a fellow on FTE that they were a "unicorn" to which I replied "I have your unicorn" and posted this picture:

That is an actual California F250/350 7.5L/E4OD EEC-V for MAF/SEFI.
Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yep, what Bill said.  I have a '96 CA-spec 460 EFI setup that is complete save for the ECU in Bill's pic.  Not COP, but OBD-II compliant - complete with the OBD-II connector.

Instead of the CA ECU I have an EEC-V MAF/SEFI ECU that was originally for a 5.8L.  But it has been tweaked by myself as well as Core Tuning to believe it is for a 7.5L.  EGR is turned off and other tweaks have been made.  It'll be running Big Blue some time next year.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Quick question: EVTM Chapter 5 (Start & Ignition)

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
85lebaront2 wrote
There are a lot of the early EEC-V systems out there that still used a distributor. Any F or E series under 8500 GVWR that still used any of the older engines (4.9L, 5.0L or 5.8L) built for the 1996 up MY would be EEC-V.
I always forget about the heavy trucks that kept the older F-series parts into the '00s.  The '95-97 diesels were originally EEC-IV (no ignition, obviously) with the underhood DLC and the underdash OBD-II-compliant DLC, and most have been flashed to to be OBD-II exclusively now.  That's what I mean about the early EEC-Vs not really being the same as the later ones, including the '96 1/2-tons that came off the line as EEC-V, and meeting the early requirements, but not being true EEC-V/OBD-II as they're commonly known today.  Obviously the diesels can be flashed, but I don't think the '96 gas engines <8500GVWR can be.  IDK about your heavy '96 EEC-Vs; have you tried flashing it yet?



In any case: BigDav782 needs to follow the Haynes diagnostic procedure I mentioned earlier.
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