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Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

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Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Gary Lewis wrote

Hard to believe they did such a poor job of the intake install. Breaking the gaskets is hard to do, but I'd guess that they put studs through in the center to hold the gasket and align the manifold, and then they had to press hard to get it down on the ends. And since it was sandwiched between the head and the intake the gasket couldn't fold over so tore.

And then to put them on backwards as well. Even lowly Chevys should be treated better than that!

Gary,

I have to own some of this as it was me that purchased the gaskets and then supplied them to the engine shop with boxes full of other parts. However...they still should not have installed them backwards...and if they had checked the part number they would have found out that they were not supposed to be used for my application. Since it was me that supplied the gaskets, I'll take the blame for that. Installing them backwards was not a big issue really.

I talked to Fel-Pro tech support and the guy was really helpful. He said it is a big "No No" to use the MS90361 gaskets with an aluminum intake. They are strictly for stock applications with cast iron heads and cast iron intakes. He said that aluminum intakes are not strong enough to put enough equal force on the gaskets to crush the perforated steel cores. The result is all kinds of vacuum leaks and related issues.
I told him how the gaskets were both broken, and he said it was likely due to the combination of the aluminum intake and maybe being over torqued. It makes the gaskets "walk" because the aluminum intake flexes and can't crush them in place like a cast iron intake would have. Makes sense to me I guess.

Anyway...onward and upward. I feel much better knowing why everything happened. They recommended the 1250 gaskets, or the even heavier duty 1250S3 version.

They'll be on order today.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Alright, new intake gaskets are on order with an ETA of tomorrow (or next Tuesday...lol). Going with Fel-Pro 1250 "Print-o-seal gaskets. I picked up a new coolant bypass hose yesterday since I cut the old one off, and last night I started the unfun task of scraping the old gaskets off the cylinder heads. How do you guys with the 4x4's work on the engine?...Ugh...

Technically, I should have it all back together this weekend, but I took this downtime opportunity to send my DSII distributor out to Scott at Parkland for a checkup and fine tuning. It is probably fine, but it will give me peace of mind if somebody else looks at it and really optimizes it. (PS: several times in the past couple years, there have been old distributor machines pop up for sale around here, and I REALLY wanted to buy one...but it really wouldn't make sense for just one distributor, and I have no space for one, blah blah blah.).

I've spent some time screwing around with my Holley and I think I have it dialed in even better now as well. I have the throttle plates set so that I can close them just past the transition slots with the idle speed screw. This I could not do before. I was trying to figure out how to measure how much of the transition slot is exposed at idle, and I read yesterday that you can use wire....which is a great idea, but where do I get wire that is 0.040"?...I must go rummage around the garage and see what I have.

Anyway...I'm on the road to recovery here...I think. I had several problems here all compounding each other, and I'm optimistic that this thing will run much better when it's all buttoned back up (and is vacuum leak free).

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

Rembrant wrote

I read yesterday that you can use wire....which is a great idea, but where do I get wire that is 0.040"?...I must go rummage around the garage and see what I have.

Do you have a set of number drill bits?
#61 is .039", and I would call it close enough.....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Do you have a set of number drill bits?
#61 is .039", and I would call it close enough.....

No, I do not...and the smallest bits I have would be 1/16", which is what?...0.060"?

Anyway, I just thought of one of those torch tip cleaner kits, and when I went to check if I had one, I found a pin-tool set I had purchased years ago for cleaning motorcycle carb jets. It's metric, but there's about 20 of them and the sizes go in 0.002" steps, so that will work.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

39 thou is also 1mm, so there is that....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

I've used a spark plug gapping tool, the ones with the single wire rather than the loop.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rembrant

I really wouldn't fret about the transition slot, but, if you have a nice set of calipers that include a depth gauge slide, you can measure the distance from the base to the end of the slot then from the base to the throttle plate edge to get the difference.

On pre-emission carburetors it was actually above the throttle plate, hence the term "transition slot". It's function was to allow fuel from the idle circuit that was not adjusted by the mixture screws into the air stream to help in the transition to the main fuel feed from the booster venturii. When the first emission systems were introduced (1966 in CA, 1968 49 state) one of the methods used was to retard the initial timing, which (a) required more throttle opening and (b) allow a leaner idle mixture. Each of the "big three" used different approaches, and in GM's case, each division was different. The two primary approaches were either air injection or engine modification. Ford used a combination, automatic transmission vehicles got the engine modification, manual transmissions got air injection.

The retarded initial timing and resulting increased throttle opening meant the engines were idling with the transition slots uncovered, this essentially converted the old idle mixture screws into mixture trim screws and on many carburetors you could turn them out to the point of falling out and never get the mixture too rich. The other nasty trick that Holley pulled, the idle mixture screws were actually air bleed screws that worked backwards, in for rich, out for lean. This was done to comply with CARB and EPA regulations.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Quick and possibly dumb question...

My gaskets are supposed to be here today so if all goes well I'll be reinstalling my intake manifold. I left the thermostat housing bolted to it since it is well sealed and working fine.

Can the short coolant bypass hose be installed with the thermostat housing in place? Or do you usually have to remove the thermostat housing for this? It's a pretty tight little bend on the 302...

Gary Lewis

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

I've done it on vehicles that just had a bad hose. It can be done.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rembrant

Stick it on the intake before you drop it on, it will not be too difficult to guide it over the pump nipple. Be glad it's not an FE or 385 series, those can be a real PITA to install, even with an aluminum intake.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

On a 385 the hose isn't too hard to get into place if you cut it the right length to begin with.

Getting those clamps on though is a royal pain!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

The FE, Ford actually said to cut the tube on the intake and had a special tool to install it with the pump on.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

In reply to this post by Rembrant

Alright, new gaskets are installed, intake is on, and RTV is drying. I went over the darn thing 20 times, and cleaned and cleaned, and wiped multiple times with solvent, etc. Torqued everything in the correct sequence, in stages, with another 2 ft/lbs to go tomorrow when it's all dried in place. I found some Edelbrock instructions that said to torque to 18-20 ft/lbs. Does that sound right to you guys?

I sure hope the darn thing doesn't leak.

And my pretty blue paint is starting to peel off already. I guess the engine can't stay new looking forever.

I'll get the carb on and all fuel and vacuum lines connected this weekend, as well as fill up the coolant system again.

Otherwise the whole thing will be on pause while I wait to get my distributor back.

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

PS: I picked up four 5" long bolts today for installation guides and they worked perfectly. Thank you for the tips.

85lebaront2

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

You are welcome sir!

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rembrant

Edelbrock knows their product best.
That's why they specify one particular gasket set.
... You don't want to know what happens if you use a turkey pan with an aluminum intake!

Your engine looks great (it just doesn't look AS great as it did a year ago when the body was shabby)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Rembrant

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Alright. I'm all buttoned back up now. Just have to fill the coolant, and wait for my distributor to get back...which will be a little while since it hasn't even arrived there yet.

I picked up some Ford dark blue engine paint and touched up my bad spots...and ended up painting the whole front of the cylinder head...lol. The color doesn't match, so I'm thinking the engine shop painted this thing GM blue?...lol. I dunno. It's lighter than the dark blue, and darker than the light blue. Was there a 3rd Ford blue color?

(And yes, I know the engines were grey by this time, but I wanted it to be blue.)

grumpin

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Looks nice!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rembrant

Yes, it is looking good, in spite of the slightly different blues.

I don't think there were three blues. But I do think that different companies have slightly different colors for the same paint.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

1986F150Six

Re: Ok, now I need some carb tuning advice (Holley 4160 600CFM)

Administrator

Looks good to me.

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