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Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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Gary Lewis

Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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For some reason Big Blue's battery was down a bit this morning. Like even the dome light didn't come on when I opened the door. But when I put the charger on it the headlights came on.

So after 30 minutes of charging with my 30A charger I tried to start it and had to hit the parallel button to bring the aux battery into play. And with that it started fine. But on the 12 minute drive to load up some more of the lady's Ford parts (more of which later) the voltage didn't come up to 12.8 even when keeping the R's up around 2K the whole way and not running any accessories.

And when I tried to start it 2 hours later to come home I had to hit parallel again. After the parallel timed out the voltage only got to 12.9 at best on the way home - still w/o any accessories.

So my question to y'all is whether it is reasonable to expect that a 130A 3G should pull an 1150 CCA battery up faster than I'm seeing? It was down around 3v, so it was seriously discharged. And I have it on the charger again to see if it is going to come back up. But it just seems like the alternator isn't doing what I expected.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gsmblue

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Certainly sounds like the alternator has failed. At least it is a 3G and is easy to source.

1985.5 F-150 XL Explorer standard cab 5.0 EFI AOD 4x4
Daily Driver. We call her Eunice the Ute.

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351W AOD 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project thread for the blow by blow.

1984 F-350 XL Centurion crew cab 460 T19 4x4
"Eylza Dual-little"

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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It hasn't completely failed as the battery voltage has now made it up to 13.5V after four trips and a one-hour charging stint. But it sure doesn't bring the voltage up as fast as I expected it to do.

I'm thinking of replacing the one I have with the DB Electrical HO-7748-220

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

mat in tn

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

what caused the battery to be so low to begin with? on my last full build I had a 3g that was actually draining the battery by way of an internal short/ground. a real pain to figure out, probably because I trusted the new alternator which turned out to be bad. the odd part was that the way I found it was because as I was studying the wiring and scratching my head after checking every possible connection. I could hear a very faint yet high pitch "sing" coming from the alt. and it went away as soon as I disconnected the battery. the next alt did not sing, nor did it lose any measurable voltage even well over a month.

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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Some idiot left the lights on. High beam and fog lights, no less.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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Sounds like that idiot needs a dinger or buzzer to remind he or she that the lights are on when the door is opened.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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Apparently said idiot is oblivious to dingers as there is one on the truck. 😩

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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Gary, Do you have an amp clamp you can put on the alternator output?

I've never had one of those fancy batteries but if a lead acid battery gets too low it is going to take some time to bring it back (if it comes back 100% at all)

The problem with deep discharge is sulfation.
It won't all come off the cathodes at once.

30A is a trickle compared to alternator output.
Remember 4 12 minute round trips is an hour and a half total with eight starts! (Yes, I know you had to use the aux)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

The voltage is running at about 13.5, but is coming up slowly. Very slowly while driving, with all accessories off. But I put the battery charger on it yesterday afternoon, so it should be up this morning when I drive it. (Making more runs to get parts out of the lady's shop before it sells, and today Steve/FoxFord33 and I are taking the trailer and getting an FE and an M-Block to sell.)

So maybe it is just taking a lot longer to come up than I expected. I already have the green light from Janey to go with a new alternator, but haven't pulled the trigger yet as I want to see that the battery isn't bad and is the cause of the slow come back. If it is back up today then I think I'll buy the new, big alternator.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Oops, I forgot about the clamp-on ammeter question. Jein. I have one but it doesn't work. So I'm assuming that the alternator is throwing the 115A that my nephew measured back in July. But I would have thought that those 12 minute trips would have brought it up faster since I kept the R's up to ~2000 by staying in a lower gear than normal. And, I didn't run any accessories at all.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Remember that charging a sulfated battery causes a lot of heat, and it isn't wise to do that.
So maybe taking a lot of short trips is actually advantageous in your situation.
At least with AGM there's less chance of warping and shorting a plate.
.
It would be best to determine if there is a fault in the alternator.
Which is why I suggested an amp clamp.
I'm sure it too is getting hot trying to get that beast of a battery to behave as it should.

It may just be that your AGM battery will take a lot longer to shed that sulfation, being that it's packed full of fibers.
Again, I know about the chemistry but not the specifics of trying to recover one of those.

Honestly, having a 220A alternator is only if you regularly need that kind of power (like winching)
It isn't going to do anything for you even with driving lights and a sporadic load like the compressor on.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

Yes, the alternator is getting pretty warm. I touched it immediately after one of the 12 minute runs and it was quite warm. And the battery was warm, but not hot.

You are right, maybe the short trips have been good to bring it up slowly, and then the overnight charge last night may have brought it up close to "full". We shall see in a bit.

As for the 220A unit, I have used the winch a few times and the compressor several times, so would like the additional capacity in the alternator.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

I don't think the compressor is an issue.
It cycles on and off. You're not painting a car with it or running a sander.

The winch could prove too much for an alternator that can 'only' put out 160A (as Ryan has documented)
But it really only draws the max at stall. And you're never going to stall a 12k winch in a 6,400# truck... Even if you pulled Big Blue up into a tree.

Which is why I always go back to the amp clamp..
Put it on the alternator... Put it on the winch cable.

Diagnose before firing the parts cannon.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Machspeed

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Confused! Was the battery low because you left the lights on or is the alternator bad?

Just slightly off topic but surprised to hear you are looking at a DB replacement. Seems we had a discussion not long ago about some issues with these and the company not being what it once was?

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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The battery was dead due to an idiot leaving the lights on all night. But it didn't come up nearly as fast as I thought a 3G alternator should bring it up.

But the four 12 minute trips plus the battery charger all night had both batteries at 14.5V this morning. Took the charger off and went to town to get tarps to cover the three engines that'll be on the trailer this afternoon, and three tires to set them on. (Gotta hurry as I have company coming this evening.)

The voltage went to 14.4 after the start and then slowly came down to 13.9 as everything got a bit warmed up - and I was running the A/C this time. The fully-warm steady state voltage is 13.8 with that regulator, so I'm sure that's where it is headed later today. So the alternator and the battery work, but the alternator just can't bring the massive battery up all that fast.

As for DB Electrical, we can talk about that later today.

But I don't know a better (less-bad) place to get a high-output alternator than there. However, I'm open to suggestions - although not Power Bastards as they won't even talk to me.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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In reply to this post by Machspeed

Gary's not happy because his fancy (completely discharged) battery isn't recovering instantly.
But pumping massive amps at a dead battery is exactly what you don't want to do.
And now all that sulfate has to slowly dissolve out of the matrix.... hopefully.

If Big Blue is showing 13.? V running and not going down, his alternator is functioning.
But there's only one way to measure output.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Machspeed

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

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ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary's not happy because his fancy (completely discharged) battery isn't recovering instantly.
But pumping massive amps at a dead battery is exactly what you don't want to do.
And now all that sulfate has to slowly dissolve out of the matrix.... hopefully.

Gary, see you later today!

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Gary Lewis

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim - Do you read lips?

Yes, you are right - on all counts.

John - Sorry I can't contribute more to the conversation but I'm loading a worn-out 460 on the trailer at the mo, and soon the T-19 is to go on. But Steve/FoxFord33 is due in an hour so I have to be ready so we can go get the other two engines.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Nothing Special

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

.... The winch could prove too much for an alternator that can 'only' put out 160A (as Ryan has documented) But it really only draws the max at stall. And you're never going to stall a 12k winch in a 6,400# truck... Even if you pulled Big Blue up into a tree....

I'm not really thinking that Gary needs a lot more alternator, but lifting a truck into a tree is one of the easier tasks that a winch might perform. Pulling the truck out of a mud hole, or up over a rocky ledge are much more likely to stall out a winch. Those are the places that a winch that's only rated for twice the weight of the truck is marginally big enough, and a snatch block might be in order. And a sustained pull through sand or snow are will overheat a winch and bring the battery down, requiring pauses to let the winch cool and the battery recover.

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Is It New/Big Alternator Time?

Administrator

Getting "unstuck" is definitely more of a challenge.

Honestly at some point traction becomes the issue unless you're chained off to a tree or something.

I'm used to wreckers and flatbeds so everything is hydraulic PTO.
Certainly slings and snatch blocks are essential for recovery.

I don't know that much about how easy it is to overheat a winch, but I do know that (like any other motor) that winch isn't drawing max amps unless it is stalled.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.