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Fuel Injection System Musings

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Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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Bill - That's excellent info. Thanks.

But, doing a bit of research I found this:

Motorcraft @ Amazon for $38

Michigan Motorsports @ Amazon for $13.

And here are pics from those adverts. Note that the Motorcraft has 4 stars and the Motorsports has 4 1/2 stars. You see any reason not to go with the Motorsports?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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I've had the book on the left for some time, but was just re-reading it in light of the work I'm doing on Big Blue. In it I found a recommendation to get the book on the right if you have a MAF system, so I just ordered it.

One of the reviews says the book is "Ford-centric". Another says "This is only really helpful for late 90s- early 20s engines." Sounds like my kind of book.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

85lebaront2 wrote

Rusty, the Holley Terminator, does it provide transmission control functions? I ask for two reasons, Rembrandt is planning on a 4R70 or 75W which is computer controlled and I have an E4OD in Darth.

With the EEC-V systems the computer can be tuned using the correct software and hardware.

There are two options for Ford EFI that is plug and play for the 302, 351w or 460. There is the Terminator X and the Terminator X Max. Below is the options.

* Includes EV1 Injector harness, for commonly found injectors on most stock ford engines
*Foxbody specific kits contain an ECU mounting bracket - TFI ignition adapter - a foxbody specific engine main harness, as well as MAT and CTS sensors. These kits also include application specific installation instructions to help you quickly and accurately convert your 5.0 powered Foxbody to Terminator X EFI
* Ford 4R70W transmission control harness (Terminator X Max Only)
*Genuine Bosch LSU 4.9 wide band control
* On-board Diagnositc LEDs for ECU Power, Engine Run, Wideband Status, TPS calibration, Crank signal, Cam signal.
*Built in 1bar MAP sensor, vacuum hose adapters included or for boosted applications you can disable the internal map sensor and utilize an external map sensor, the harness comes with the connector terminated
* Plug and play ignition capability with Dual Snc and Hyperspark distributors, adapter 558-323 required for hyperspark distributors
*4 inputs - 12V, Ground, 5V, and Frequency, for things such as additional pressure sensors, or activation triggers for nitrous activation or a transbrake. Fuel and oil pressure inputs are pre terminated
*4 outputs - Ground, PWM for accessories such as fans boost control nitrous control IAC kit and more
*Boost Control Boost vs Time, Boost vs Gear, Boost vs RPM, Boost vs Speed, Boost safeties
*Nitrous control
*Advanced Tables
*Integrated data logging
*free EFI software

Some models they have are the foxbody 5.0 MPFI harness with the 92-97 4R70W transmission harness part #550-943F for $1,630.95, a Universal MPFI harness with the 92-97 4R70W transmission harness part #550-943 for $1,462.95, a Ford MPFI kit with 98+ 4R70W transmission control.

I do not see a listing for one with the E4OD transmission control but they do have them for people transplanting 4L60/4L80 GM transmissions how ever.

~Update~

I looked further down for the Terminator X Max it does list E4OD as a transmission control option.
https://www.holley.com/brands/holley_efi/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_x/terminator_x_and_x_max_ford_kits/terminator_x_max_ford_kits/page=2

I know its pricy but around here you cant find anyone that can dyno tune these obsolete systems if its older than 1995 they just dont have the hardware anymore. Same with carbs no one local or with in 200 miles of me will dyno tune a carb they all went to late model EFI or aftermarket EFI.

"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2

85lebaront2

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Probably not, only difference might be where it's made, and there's no longer a guarantee the Motorcraft one isn't made there too. I guess I might want to get one in case I find another YC2F unit (this one has to go back on the E250).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

Rusty - Those systems sound nice, but expensive. I think I'm going to be happy with my EEC-V system, but I have a lot to learn.

For instance, guys, the above talks about MAP. But I don't see anything related to MAP in the inputs to the ECU. Am I missing something? How does the ECU know the atmospheric pressure? Or manifold pressure? Or does it need to?

Bill - On the connector, if the MAF sensor coming in this week has the IAT sensor built in then I'll buy the less expensive connector and do as you suggested - wire the air box-mounted IAT sensor's plug in parallel. That way I can run any of the MAF sensors. And I'll probably do that anyway as I think about it as it would give more flexibility.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty - Those systems sound nice, but expensive. I think I'm going to be happy with my EEC-V system, but I have a lot to learn.

For instance, guys, the above talks about MAP. But I don't see anything related to MAP in the inputs to the ECU. Am I missing something? How does the ECU know the atmospheric pressure? Or manifold pressure? Or does it need to?

Bill - On the connector, if the MAF sensor coming in this week has the IAT sensor built in then I'll buy the less expensive connector and do as you suggested - wire the air box-mounted IAT sensor's plug in parallel. That way I can run any of the MAF sensors. And I'll probably do that anyway as I think about it as it would give more flexibility.

They are expensive but they are getting cheaper though and eventually you will have to upgrade to them as speed shops are constantly throwing away obsolete tuning equipment and the foxbody era equipment is getting quite hard to find. We did a exhaust and some goodies on a surburban at work only one guy in all of the US could tune the old OBDI GM computer and we had to mail it to him. That is why I always make sure to mention it because in OE stock form you should be fine it is when you start making changes and need someone to tune it that you realize its getting harder and harder to find someone.

Its a big reason why if I toss my sniper and go OE EFI I will be going with the holley system as its easier to locate a tuner local. I didnt think this kind of period would be upon us so soon I thought we would get to the 2040`s before tuners of the OBDI era computers were obsolete considering the huge following OBDI vehicles have in the hotrod world. But everything now is late model swap, 5.0 Coyote, 7.3 Godzilla, LS.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I think I can now answer my own question. EEC-V systems don't have a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor as they determine both the air volume and density via the MAF sensor. This page on "Mass Airflow MAF Sensors" says:

Mass airflow sensors (MAF), which are used on a variety of multiport fuel injection systems, come in two basic varieties: hot wire and hot film. Though slightly different in design, both types of sensors measure the volume and density of the air entering the engine so the computer can calculate how much fuel is needed to maintain the correct fuel mixture.

And, as I think about it, Bills spreadsheet shows spec's in lb/min, so that takes into account density. And other places talk about grams/second - again taking into account the density of the air.

Bill - That then begs the question of how you got the CFM #'s. I ask because what I've found says that to get standard cubic feet/minute the air has to be at 0C and 1 atmosphere of pressure. And in that case you divide the lb/min by 0.0805321 and get SCFM.

Using that calc on the F8LF MAF sensor at 5.00 volts your #'s show 598.398 CFM and mine show 556.548 SCFM. Said another way, your #'s are 8% higher than mine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

Rusty - I think once I tune the truck then I'll not have to worry about it. As Bill has done, I'll probably "burn" another ECU with the same parameters. But then it'll be replacing components when they fail.

Both Bill and I have Binary Editor so can tune Ford's EEC-V ECU's. I've not truly done it myself, but I watched as the guy from Core Tuning did the initial setup on my ECU where he turned off EGR, the 3rd O2 sensor, purge solenoids, etc. But once I get the truck running on the system I know I'll have to play with ignition timing and other parameters.

So, I have a lot to learn. But I believe it is a once-and-done thing. From that point you put the scan tool on and read the codes.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

It was a conversion I found on Google. If you seriously want to play with things, go put it at Standard Temperature and Pressure (Gas laws). I haven't messed with them since 1963 or 64 when I took physics in High School (in between building a cyclotron).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty - I think once I tune the truck then I'll not have to worry about it. As Bill has done, I'll probably "burn" another ECU with the same parameters. But then it'll be replacing components when they fail.

Both Bill and I have Binary Editor so can tune Ford's EEC-V ECU's. I've not truly done it myself, but I watched as the guy from Core Tuning did the initial setup on my ECU where he turned off EGR, the 3rd O2 sensor, purge solenoids, etc. But once I get the truck running on the system I know I'll have to play with ignition timing and other parameters.

So, I have a lot to learn. But I believe it is a once-and-done thing. From that point you put the scan tool on and read the codes.

Generally it is a once and done thing, but it is a good idea to have a duplicate ecm in the off chance that yours goes out. the ecms dont fail much now a days but the older ecm`s had a higher fail rate but thats like any thing electrical you can have a fail out of the box, a week after installation, or twenty years after installation.

The learning is the hardest part, its a big reason why I played with the software I have from Holley but I will just pay a highly recommended guy to do the tune for me and once my truck is finished Ill just drive it out to him for a dyno tune to fine tune it.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill - I haven't played with the Ideal Gas Law since college - and don't want to. I was just curious where you got the numbers. (But I do remember that PV = nRT.

)

Rusty - That's why Bill has a spare, although it is in my shop, and I intend to have one - or more.

Big Blue isn't the only usage of the EEC-V system I plan. Dad's truck is to get the same treatment, so I'm using BB as the guinea pig. (Ouch! Did I just liken a 460 to a pig?

) In other words, this isn't just a one-off exercise.

In fact, our member and my friend Steve Fox/Foxford33 has a Jeep Grand Wagoneer and we've discussed going with EEC-V on it. The system doesn't care what brand engine it is controlling, but Steve has said he might go w/a 351W and an E4OD. We can do that, but we could also do any other engine if we can graft on a compatible TPS.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

Well, the X3LF-BA MAF sensor from the Jag came in today. Here's a closeup for posterity.

As it turns out there are apparently different X3LF-BA's as the one David found two days ago is on the left, below, and the one from the Jag as well as my F5OF are on the right. The one on the left has the inlet air temp sensor and mine doesn't. And, as you can see, that later style is way too big to fit in one of the earlier housings.

So, at this point I don't know what I'm going to do. I might try the X3LF that I have and just use the IAT sensor in the air box. Or I might order in the X3LF w/an IAT sensor and the connector to make it work. Still thinking on this, but welcome your thoughts.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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Gary, the XL3F-BA I have does not have the IAT built in, the YC2F-BA from the 2003 E250 5.4L does.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

Interesting, Bill. I just ordered the XL3F-BA that shows to have the IAT sensor in it in the pics. For $18 it is worth it, both to find out and to have it on hand in case the one in the pics above doesn't work correctly.

Oddly enough, this one says it is a "new takeoff". So, why would anyone take a new MAF off?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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Junkyard.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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So, they just recently took it off so it is a "new takeoff"?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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Have done some reading in my new book entitled Engine Management Advanced Tuning. And I found this discussion:

Laminar Flow: Many OEM applications reduce clocking and velocity effects by integrating a laminar flow element into the MAF sensor assembly. The design of these flow straighteners ranges from simple wire screens to honeycombs with an exceptionally high Reynolds number. Many performance enthusiasts looking for extra power mistake the laminar flow element for a genuine restriction and remove them.

Looks to me like he's describing that screen in our EEC-V systems, the one that looks like this:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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The factory 460 air filter has one, but it is essentially a screen. The 1995 Lincoln Continental MAF and the 2003 E250 5.4L both had/have a curved "horn" like a carburetor velocity stack. The 1996 Chevy 454 MAF has what appears to be a screen on it, both sides, but if could be the actual sensor. The modified Windsor MAF air filter I made has the horn from the inside of the Lincoln Continental air filter.

On the original Lincoln Continental and the E250 the filter elements are round and butt against the disc the MAF is attached to inside the assembly so the air is pretty much straight going into the MAF, on the Windsor air filter, pretty much the same as the MAF sits above the lid face. The 460 one sits below the lid face and has a ledge across the inlet duct so the screen may be needed to smooth the flow even though the opening is asymmetric, with the bottom of the flange about 12mm above the bottom of the MAF housing.

It would be interesting if I still had access to the air flow bench we had in the lab for calibrating anemometers so I could maybe do some comparisons of MAF styles (plastic vs metal) and inlet configurations.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

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Yes, I think that screen is to turn the flow laminar. I'm sure glad I have it.

Boy, it would be wonderful if you could do the testing.

I've been trying to figure out how I could do it. I have the 600 CFM dust collector I use to pull powder out of the booth when I'm PC'ing. I'm sure it doesn't flow exactly 600 CFM, but if I had a reference I could put several MAF sensors in series. That should let me compare the several units I have, but it wouldn't let me easily vary the CFM - unless I bleed some off. But it would be fiddly and I don't really want to do it as I'd rather get this EFI system going.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Fuel Injection System Musings

Administrator

Got my 2nd XL3F MAF sensor in today. Boy is it clean. But, unlike the picture, it doesn't have the temp sensor in it. Yes, I could send it back but I'm going to keep it as it looks new. I think I'll use it in the plastic housing as that will give me a backup in case there's a problem with this one.

Here are a couple of pics of it vs the $14 Jag takeoff, which is the dirty one. Note that parallax error is why the right one looks bigger. They are the same size.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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