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Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

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Machspeed

Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

Hey gang, I've noted that when my truck is good and warmed up that there is some initial drag at restart. I do not appear to have any cooling issues and it fires up easily when cold and restarts easily when cold. The starter is the OEM unit and it has right at 100K on it now. Possible early starter failure?

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Gary Lewis

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

I'll wait and see what the others say as you already know my thoughts.

(Somewhere In Time is over. Had to watch it 'cause it was filmed on Mackinac Island, where we were a week ago. Now to work on the NMSH page...

)

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

grumpin

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

I’ve had too much advance timing drag a starter when warm. Especially after a couple hours on the freeway.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Machspeed

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

I thought about that Dane, but it seems to run so good and when I timed it months back I set it at the proper timing mark. I will put a light on it to check that timing again. Thanks!

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Gary Lewis

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

To bump this along, the opinion I gave John last night is that his starter is worn out. What happens in that case is that the worn bearing allows the armature to get close to the windings, and when the starter gets hot the windings and the armature both expand and touch. So now you have a serious drag and that causes friction, which generates heat, which causes expansion, which causes drag, which...

The fix is a new starter. But you want to go with a Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction (PMGR) unit. Starters are on the page at Documentation/Engines/Starters, and there is a tab for PMGR starters, although I'm not sure that's very helpful as it looks like you need the Lester #. So I'd go to Rock Auto's catalog for a '93 F150, which I'm sure had a PMGR starter, and get the right part #. And from there go shopping. Like maybe DB Electrical? Or Autozone? Or? Local would be good as then you get a replacement later. And you can pull your starter and compare gears.

And the wiring changes a bit. Look at Documentation/Electrical/PMGR Wiring.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Machspeed

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

I was reading up on it last night, Gary. Lots of advantages to running a PMGR starter and there is some very minimal wiring changes. There was some discussion on a Bronco forum I noted regarding that wiring and I need to study it a bit more and will likely bring it here for discussion. Thanks!

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Gary Lewis

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

Yes, there are advantages. But no disadvantages I can think of.

Now to your question re brand. I am NOT a Powermaster fan, although I'm running one on Big Blue since that was what was there when I got him. (That's Scott, but don't tell him I said so as he might bring that alternator back.) So I see no reason to go buy a high-dollar starter. I'd bet any parts-store variety PMGR starter will spin your 351W easily - assuming the cables and battery are up to snuff.

So if you have an affinity for some chain store I'd go buy one of their best starters and move on.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rembrant

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

In reply to this post by Machspeed

Machspeed wrote

Hey gang, I've noted that when my truck is good and warmed up that there is some initial drag at restart. I do not appear to have any cooling issues and it fires up easily when cold and restarts easily when cold. The starter is the OEM unit and it has right at 100K on it now. Possible early starter failure?

You haven't replaced the DSII module with an aftermarket one, have you?

I installed a PMGR starter on my 1980 when I built (or rebuilt?) it. It was a starter I snagged off a 1996 F150 at the junkyard a couple years prior...a fairly fresh Napa reman unit, so I grabbed it as a spare for the '84, and then didn't install it until I needed one for the 1980.

The only downside I would note is the installation of a non-original part, and somewhere, someday years from now, when somebody else orders a new starter, they might get a surprise when/if they try to connect that large live lead to a non PMGR starter...lol.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

FuzzFace2

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

As Cory pointed out and someone on that other forum the later factory PMGR starter would be the way to go for off the shelf parts when needed.

As for the re-wire it is cake!
Move the large cable that goes to the starter at the relay over to the other side of relay with the battery cable.
That cable goes to the large lug on the PMGR starter/

Then run a 10 ga wire from the now open large lug on the relay and put that on the small lug of the PMGR starter.

The relay now is not running mega power through it and you could run a cheap one but I would not.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

Gary Lewis

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

You mean like this, Dave? (From our page at Documentation/Electrical/PMGR Starter Wiring:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Gary Lewis wrote

You mean like this, Dave? (From our page at Documentation/Electrical/PMGR Starter Wiring:

Yep just like that as he asked or said he had to look into how it was wired.

I think before I would call that starter warn out at just, what was it 150K+ miles?
The next time it is slow cranking when hot pull the coil wire from the cap and ground it and see if it cranks at normal speed. If so its a timing issue, if still slow then starter.
BTW 1 got 255k+ on the starter in my 02 Dodge and it still works great.
Dave ----

ratdude747

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

In reply to this post by Rembrant

Rembrant wrote

The only downside I would note is the installation of a non-original part, and somewhere, someday years from now, when somebody else orders a new starter, they might get a surprise when/if they try to connect that large live lead to a non PMGR starter...lol.

Not an issue if you wire the way the PMGR in both of my 1995 Rangers were wired from the factory. There still was a heavy relay (identical unit) that switched the main power lead to the motor. The solnoid connection was in parallel with the starter relay coil. If I go PMGR on my Bullnose (it's starter is starting to have stall and start issues like Machspeed's) I'm planning to wire it that way. IMHO easier to work on since no live wires unless trying to crank. And the solenoid is still isolated from the starter feed when the ignition switch isn't in "start".

Edit- Nope... Rechecked my 1997 Ranger schematics, the starter is indeed hot at all times with the relay driving the solenoid. How I've gone this long without realizing this baffles me.

15626.pdf

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

1986F150Six

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

John, try this and it costs nothing... the next time the engine drags [warm and after along drive], temporarily disconnect the coil wire and "try to start the engine". If the engine spins freely, the dragging was caused by too advanced timing.

Machspeed

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

That's a great idea, I'll try it. Thanks Dave!

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

kramttocs

Re: Engine Drag On Restart After Long Drive

Administrator

Late to the game but like was said starter heat soak can be a pain on these and exacerbate the problems of a worn starter- especially with headers like you have.

Battery/starter cables all good?

You can try a starter shield but not sure how effective they are. I have one on my powermaster as a preventative measure but no clue if it does anything measurable. I have my doubts.

Gary is lucky return shipping would be prohibitive

While my first powermaster starter was a dud the second one (xs torque) turns over my 460 hot or cold like nothing so have been very happy with it. It is also clockable so one can get it as far away from the header as possible.

All in all, I second the pmgr starter upgrade no matter what brand you go with.

Scott
'Camano' 1986 F250 Supercab XLT Lariat 460/C6
'Chanute' 1980 F350 C&C 400/NP 435 - Gin Pole

But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio