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Electrical Problem again

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jdavidsmi

Re: Electrical Problem again

Been having problems with laptop, (Windows 10). got that solved last night.

Good Morning and Happy Thanksgiving

Anyway the truck sat Monday night, and all day Tuesday with the alternator disconnected. The voltage across the battery read 12.72 Wednesday morning. No change late Wednesday afternoon, still 12.72. Hooked everything back up.
This morning it's reading 12.68. just to check to insure the meter was reading close to accurate, I checked with two other meters, ones an old analog and my other DVM. Both reading were right around the same.

David

David,
1984 F150 LX, 4x4 117 wheel base, Engine Code "F" = 302, 5.0 2/B,
Transmission code "A" = 4sp manual New Process model 435
Axle code "19" = 3.55 (ford 8.8) manf. 08/1983, in Norfolk
DSO code "21" AtlantaFactory Air Conditioner, Dash with Gauges
1990 Goldwing 1500
1986 F150 XLT, short bed, 5.0 automatic
2004 F53 Fleetwood Terra motor home
2017 Chevrolet Traverse
Home town Viola Tennessee

jdavidsmi

Re: Electrical Problem again

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

85lebaront2

What do you mean by "Fire Plug"?

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill,
This is exactly the argument I had with one of the 'Guru's' over on FTE.

For someone who posts beautiful color coded schematics of the various iterations of 'hot fuel handling' I think he is stuck when it comes to seeing the obvious.
(No knock against him. He is a valuable and knowledgeable contributor)

When that stupid charge/stator plug gets corroded and either sets the alternator full field or catches the truck on fire it is a problem.
NOTE; I SAID WHEN, NOT IF!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by jdavidsmi

He's talking about the plug going into the alternator. Ford knew they had a problem so created this: TSB's/2G Alternator Repair. Here's an excerpt:

When a generator fails, there are a few failure modes that may cause heat to be produced at the wiring harness-to-generator connector. This excess heat may damage the female terminals on the wiring harness resulting in increased resistance.

That is a well-thought out (so they didn't have liability) understatement of a viscous circle, meaning that the heat increases the resistance, which increases the heat, which increases the resistance, ......... until something gives. Frequently it is the alternator, but sometimes the truck.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

I'm talking about the charge plug, not the regulator plug.
Rectangular, two BK/OR wires about 12Ga. and the Stator wire.

The yellow 'sense' wire in the regulator plug comes from the fender relay *beyond the fusible link attached to the BK/OR wires*.
So when the plug melts down and the always hot charge wires end up shorting to the case the link blows and the alternator will kill itself pushing power to nowhere, or the whole damn thing catches fire.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, that is where the second problem arises. The butt connectors will eventually corrode a little and under load, will cause a voltage drop, but, since the voltage sense is at the junction of the alternator fusible link and the main feed fusible link the built in regulator sees lower voltage and compensates by increasing the field voltage to correct this, under high load, (high beam lights, A/C on with high fan) the alternator ends up at full field and fries itself internally. That's what happened to Matt, the alternator harness had a bad connection and it ended up with the alternator full fielding for about 5 mins, then all the smoke leaked out.

Now you know why a number of us have gone to 3G alternators. On most of these trucks a 130 amp 3G from a Taurus 3.8L V6 is a nice near drop-in as it is an axial mount and easy to re clock the housing if needed.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

I'd forgotten that there were two plugs, but you are right: - C185 & 186:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

This is why I loop the sense wire of the 3G to the output stud.

If the Megafuse blows the alternator doesn't fry itself.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

Jim - Now I understand. The thing is already booted up, so any loss of "sense" takes it to full-tilt.

Bill - The Huck has a 2G and I have a freshly-rebuilt 2G in the attic. So if Matt needs more smoke I'll ship them to where the waters fall.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

Gary, Matt sold "Stolen" to his cousin in Chesapeake several years ago, that's when he found how anemic the V10 is for towing. Using a borrowed trailer to haul the F150 on, he was clear down in 2nd on the 4R100 with 3:73 gears.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: Electrical Problem again

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

This is why I loop the sense wire of the 3G to the output stud.

If the Megafuse blows the alternator doesn't fry itself.

I can see the reason for doing it like this but has anyone had issues with the batt. not charging because it does not see what the batt. is at but a false reading right at the ALT.

Do you know where the stock ALT sensing wire ran to? On another make/model it is up in the harness to the inside power feed.
I have heard from some using the GM 1 wire ALT's on cars about the batt. not charging.

What if you made the loop up to the mega fuse but before it not after. This way it would be a little closer to the batt. but still protect the ALT.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

Dave - If you have good connections and decent cables the readings may be slightly different as the alternator is throwing its max output. But as the voltage on the battery comes up and approaches that of the alternator the current flow will drop, as will the voltage difference. So there will be essentially no difference in readings at that point.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

jdavidsmi

Re: Electrical Problem again

Gary, my system is a 1G and there are three wires leaving the Alternator. A large dark color wire from the battery terminal to the starter relay, a yellow wire from field to voltage regulator, and a black to the choke.

The connector for the regulator was corroded and I cleaned it up as best I could, hard to get to the top side.

I have replaced the neg cable for the battery, and I have cleaned both contact points for the motor ground to the fire wall.

I also have replace all three of the wire terminals where they attach to the alternator. The insulation on the large wire is bridle in places so I should change it out.

I have been thinking about this on again, off again short. I need to insure the rod for the ignition switch fully retracts when I turn the key off. maybe it sticks sometime and something is not fully turned off.

I need to run in to the lumber yard tomorrow, so we will see how it does.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Dave,
I have a 2/0 charge cable with soldered lugs at each end and used NoAlox on installation.
The issue is not going to be *between* the alternator and fuse.... ETA: in my truck.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

In reply to this post by jdavidsmi

It is possible for the key tumbler not to turn the ignition switch fully off, so do check that. The best way that I know is to adjust it, as shown here: Electrical/Ignition Switch.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

Easy to determine if the ignition switch is not "off" and leaving something on.
Just turn something on that only works in run or acc, like the wipers.

Otherwise, leave the adjustment alone!

Finding that kind of draw is not difficult.
Start at the connections of the fender relay and work from there, if you even need to go farther.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FuzzFace2

Re: Electrical Problem again

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Dave,
I have a 2/0 charge cable with soldered lugs at each end and used NoAlox on installation.
The issue is not going to be *between* the alternator and fuse....

When this happened to others using a 1 wire, could be different in this case of looping it to the out put?, I do not know the condition of the rest of their system so they may of had a bad connection some place? Maybe it has to do with the higher output of the 3G ALT?

What is nice is we can read about all the different ways people have done something, what has worked and what has not and then pick what we think will work for us.
Oh yes the internet is grand!
Dave ----

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

I can understand this Dave. (and edited my post)
And definitely, "whatever works for you"

In my personal experience I haven't had an issue with the alternator not charging.
I have a voltmeter *and* a battery warning light in the cab.
With good connections system voltage should not vary much, at all.

Moving the sense wire put me at ease that the 3G would not burn my truck down or fry itself trying, like my 2G did on more than one occasion.

I think David should replace his charge cable.
If it is brittle, it is probably black inside too.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

jdavidsmi

Re: Electrical Problem again

I have been driving the truck around for a week now and there have not been any issues.
A short recap of what happen and what I done. While I was driving, system was not charging, so i had battery and alternator tested, both showed OK, purchased new voltage regulator and installed it at store. Everything was normal until I was driving home charge voltage jumped to 17 volts, I turned on everything I could and made it home. Truck sat a week while I was in Florida, upon my return, the battery was dead. I charged it up for a couple of days and it seem OK. While running the charge voltage was between 15 and 17 volts. did all the test everyone suggested and decided the new voltage regulator was bad. took alternator and battery and had them tested both tested OK. got a new voltage regulator and reinstalled everything and let it sit. after 3 days I still had 12.66 voltage across the battery.
I replaced all the terminals at the alternator, replaced the battery neg cable, cleaned the contact points for the motor ground.
As of this afternoon I had 12.58 volts across the battery, and while running the voltage is staying between 13.8 and 14.4 volts.
So I'm thinking the bad voltage regulator was the issue.
The key off short has not come back. I did check to insure everything was off when I turned the key off. So maybe it was me and not something electrical. Time will tell.

Thanks to all for all the advice on the different test.

David

Gary Lewis

Re: Electrical Problem again

Administrator

Looks like you have the problem solved. Well done! And, thanks for the followup.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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