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Defective new lifter vs. new cam

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ReneH

Defective new lifter vs. new cam

This post was updated on .

Hi together,

for this, I have made a new threat. So Bill, Gary and Mat know about the whole story.
I have taken some photos with my new endoscopic camera.

Google album

All images up to the image names "SPACER" (20230413213036542.jpg) are made
from the lobe of the defective lifter. All images after that are made from a lobe of
an intact lifter's lobe.

So, what do you think? Is the cam still driveable or does it need a rework?
One lobe to rework may payable here in Germany...but I'm honest...I'm not
wanting to get out this cam if it isn't necessary...

So, I hope you have good news for me!

René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic

mat in tn

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

I can only say what "I" would do. I'm sorry to say that I would remove that camshaft. I do not see it mating properly with another lifter to be reliable. Another failure may certainly do more damage. it is highly unlikely that you got 15 good and one bad lifter. I still think that lifter was not free to rotate in its bore. either way a certain amount of damage is already done. save the rest by doing what is needed.

Gary Lewis

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

Rene - I can't figure out which pic is which in your album as all I can see is huge long URLs, not the name for a pic. But that really doesn't matter as I'm with Matt - I'd replace the cam. I cannot imagine it being good after doing that to the lifter, and I sure wouldn't take the chance.

And Matt's point about the lifter rotating is a good one. If the pic below is of the bore your bad lifter came out of then I'd check to see that the lifter will easily rotate in it. And if you can feel those grooves you may need to run a hone through it.

Last, please be careful with your "language". I want this to be a family-friendly forum, and frequently send my grandkids links here. So just inserting an asterisk or two doesn't hide what you are saying.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

Rene', several items, first, when you look at the cam lobes through the lifter bores, none of them should be centered in the bores, they should be offset toward one side. This, along with the shape of the cam lobe "nose" is what makes the lifters rotate.

Second, all 16 lifters should be able to spin freely in their bores so that the cam lobes acting against them will spin them and their push rods.

Third, the tips of the lobes are not perfectly parallel to the center line of the cam, they are slightly angled, again, to make the lifters rotate in their bores.

If any of these are not correct, one or more lifters and cam lobes will rapidly destroy themselves. You can put the lifters in the correct bores and with the plugs out so the engine will turn freely, first observe the lifters without the push rods and rockers installed to see if the cam is rotating them (a mark on the top of the lifter will allow you to check all 16 easily. If any one is not rotating you have a problem with that cam lobe. If that test is satisfactory, then reinstall push rods and rockers and repeat. Again all 16 lifters need to rotate with their push rods.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Hi Bill, hi Matt,

first of all...sorry for my choice of words...I've corrected it...

So comparing both of your answers, I should remove the cam and replace it.

I have three options about that.

1. I can ask a friend to rework the currently Installed camps bad lobe.

2. I can use my original 302 cam (images will follow)

3. I can buy a new 351W cam and replace the installed one...

What do you think?

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

OK, option replacing the cam. These are currently available for me:

This is the currently installed one:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-35-255-5

Or I can get this one:
https://www.rockauto.com/de/moreinfo.php?pk=10211336&cc=1105951&pt=5260&jsn=8

So I will ask summit for an offer, cause of the defective cam...It's worth a try...

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

About the bores of the lifters: I have checked all before inserting the lifters. I also checked the abilitiy to rotate. Every single lifter slides in perfectly and also rotates while spinning...so I can't imagine that this was the problem...as re-assembling the engine, I have done the most check-ups twice to be sure not to come to a point as I'm at now...but sometimes all checks won't help...that's why I'm so scared about the video you have posted, Bill.

Gary Lewis

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

I think going back to Summit is a good idea. Surely they've had others with similar problems.

And if the lifters rotate in the bores then that' not the problem. Must have been the cam.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

mat in tn

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

contacting summit as a means of doing research is a great idea. understanding that any and all warranty may easily be dismissed as "installation error". I'm not taking sides, but they may if approached wrong.
bill explained a good test of lifter rotation and that test relies heavily on a good bore/fit and good oil. i do this and i also set the engine at an angle on the stand to allow lifters to be vertical for each bank . as being on an angle while just the lifters are installed they may not have enough weight to rotate. it is splitting hairs I know. but it can find very small differences. too tight rockers or too heavy valve springs are not good for break in either.

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Yes, I'm also very exited about summits answer...

As I'm using all stocks (springs, rockers, etc.) and have tighten the rockers ad specified, I also can't imagine that one of these parts are guilty...I also have turned the engine by hand many times at the stand as checking the valve clearance...
I also have used a special break-in oil and done a change after the break-in...so in my opinion I have done, what's possible...

mat in tn

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

I'm looking forward to a good solution for this. I love these broncos and will have one when the right one shows up. I know you have been on a real journey with this one. it's time to enjoy it.

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Thanks! Yes, it was and still is a journey.
I will disassemble everything necessary and get the cam out tomorrow.
While waiting for an answer and, hopefully, a new cam without additional costs, o woll work on my tailgate window, my keyless entry and also install the 7" android radio with 360° cams...

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

So, today I have removed the cam...what shouls I say...it doesn't looks better outside as already seen on the pics of the stethoscope cam...

I'll go up to summit also with these pics....I hope they will replace the cam FAST...
We will see, what they are answering...

mat in tn

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

I know you did not want to get back into the engine, but you will be glad that you did. that lobe is badly damaged. is it just the one lobe, or are others worn also? now is the time to study everything. triple check every step.

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

No, the others seems to be OK. Maybe one lifter has another pattern...but also a circle. No lines on it. So this is identical to the lobes. Nothing you can see without measuring...

I have to hone the bore of the defective lifter. It got scratches from removing the lifter...

I have inspected also the inlets of the bores. No ridges...only at the one with the defective lifter.

Also the cam bearings are ok. Nothing suspicious....

I have also tried to punch the defective lifter and a good one...without any difference..

Gary Lewis

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

I'm glad you pulled the cam. That lobe is truly bad, and some of the others may be suspect.

Hopefully Summit will come through for you. Fast.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Yes, I also hope they'll will send me a new cam...but my experience with other companies have shown me the opposite.

In parallel inwill claim the lifters at rockauto.com...I have made the experience that they are very close to the customer and send credit notes also for small damages.

Don't pulling the cam was not an option.
I want to drive this car a long time, so I want to be sure that all basics are in very good condition.

As I have choose the bronco as our family truck, I've searched for one with a destroyed engine, cause we have a company, located in the Netherlands, that supplies very good and payable fully overhauled engines directly done in the USA. Including a three year guarantee.

But the 80th bronco are rare in Germany...so I haven't found one in good condition with a destroyed engine...I've found the one I've bought, that looked very good. But you can't look inside an engine...
It looks good, it runs good...what should I say. On base of my knowledge today, it was a truck made of parts over one decade...
AOD changed to C6...interior parts from a 90th truck...as you haven't the knowledge of the single models of the brands you'll buy, you can easily buy scrap without knowing it...

But my body and chassis are nearly free of rust...only to day something positive...

85lebaront2

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

In reply to this post by ReneH

What you are seeing is what I have been seeing from a number of different sources. Cams and lifters failing at very low hours, many never getting through the break-in run. If you still have the boxes the lifters came in, see if the country of origin is on there. If so, I will be willing to bet it says "China".

One of the issues is most likely cost related, older lifters frequently had a cap on the bottom that was most likely an alloy steel that could be hardened and the cams were frequently nitrided for wear resistance. Much of the newer stuff that is failing, including roller lifters are showing metal flaking off which to me, from 30 years of working with this type of failure in a laboratory, says "case hardened" which is great, until something damages the very thin hardened layer. Underneath that layer, is very soft metal.

Until recently, the only cam failures I used to see were Chevrolet V8s where one or more lobes would wipe out with no rhyme or reason.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

So, good news today. Summit replaces the cam without any cost for me...

Gary Lewis

Re: Defective new lifter vs. new cam

Administrator

Wow!!!! Wonderful! Kudos to Summit.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile