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Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

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ratdude747

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

grumpin wrote

My son’s BMW has a liquid cooled alternator.

As did Caddies with Northstar's. For "improved reliability"

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

BigBrother-84

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, dummy question:

If the output amp is someway cranked, could the overall electrical system various protections (fuses and fusible links) become more sensitive and “fragile”, so they can break more easily?

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

I'm not Gary but these 3G alternators have an internal (attached) regulator.
They should only be putting out enough current and voltage to stabilize the electric system at their set point voltage. 14.35V in most cases.
Something like a winch may be able to draw more than the alternator can provide (given the *alternator* rpms, but unless the regulator is grounded or the B (sense) wire is disconnected the alternator should never be able to set the voltage high enough to damage any components.
Realize that the alternator is constantly varying it's output, and in 99% of our cases a 130A rated alternator can provide double the output of a stock 2G or standard 1G.
Gary has an edge case vehicle with every do-dad under the sun. (3,000W inverter and winch being never envisioned by Ford)
But, as we *do* see he finds just running the AC at idle can make that voltage sag.
I personally think that with 1,800 CCA of battery he shouldn't see a voltage drop... but evidently data shows otherwise (even with a different regulator)
Forcing the alternator full field should show a voltage spike, but any alternator is limited in what it can put out by it's rotational speed.
I seriously doubt that even a 220A alternator would change this. Because (A) a belt can only transmit so much power (the 200A Mitsubishi ambulance alternator uses a 10 rib belt) and (B) alternator rpm at idle. (ambulances spend a *lot* of time idling). even on scene with all their lights and AC blasting)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Jeff - Jim's answer is far better than anything I would have responded with. But if you still have questions lay them on us.

Jim - Thanks. But as for the voltage drop, remember that the resting voltage of the batteries is ~12.6V. So if you kick on a 150 amp load when the alternator can only put out 100 amps then the batteries are called on to provide current, and the system voltage will drop. Given that, I'm not surprised to see the voltage go down below 12.0V with the air compressor on.

I don't really know how much current the alternator is able to generate at idle, nor how much the invertor pulls from the the system when the air compressor is on, so the 150A and 100A numbers are just a guess. But I hope to find out today.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Oh yes! That's why I pointed out the 2.25hp draw of the compressor (plus inverter losses) and the winch as exceptions.

But I was going back to where you mentioned AC only dragging the system down, while your grandson was putting around the Church lot.
Compressor clutch and blower only (plus ignition) shouldn't be enough -in my mind- to cause that.
Though I don't know how much all the later electronics + fuel pump + ??? add to what a "normal" Bullnose would see.

Obviously these trucks managed okay with just the stock loads (wipers, lights, blower) on a 65 (or even 45A!) alternator.
But (A) they weren't usually left to idle, and (B) the stock ammeter was a pretty poor indicator of charge/discharge on a good day.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

I think we may have a different understanding of what was meant in previous posts. And I'm sure my own understanding has changed over time. The post about taking the grandtwins out and putt-putting around the church parking lot is here, but it doesn't mention battery voltage. That came up later in the conversation, which had a lot of twists and turns - as usual.

And while I may have been thinking that the A/C system pulled the voltage down, as I've checked the system out further it looks like it is just that the regulator's set point is coming down as it heats up. I'm seeing 13.2V for system voltage, with or without A/C load, when everything is up to temp.

As you pointed out, 13.2V is fully charged on these batteries, assuming you've taken the voltage up into the 14's to top them off after starting, so 13.2V isn't a problem. IOW I think the system is working well and is adequate under most conditions. But the air compressor and winch are more load than the alternator can supply during the time they are on, so the voltage is going to go below 12.0 for a bit.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Oops!

Yes you mentioned water temp, and if the alternator could keep up with the additional load of electric fans.
My apologies.

The high flow Taurus/Lincoln fans DO draw a lot of current (hence the advent of the 3G)

It is very interesting that the set point would vary with heat soak.
I kind of wonder if that is due to the internal fans not being able to flush enough air out the back of the alternator, or just a symptom of ferocious underhood temps in these trucks when not (or barely) moving.

If it is a matter of the regulator temp exceeding operational limits Bill may be on to something, ducting ambient air from in front of the radiator support to the alternator.
If it's just down to the windings and regulator making too much heat there's not much you can do about heat=resistance without increasing air flow.
Certainly the dual internal fan design of the 3G is light years ahead of the single external 1G/2G fan.

So, is it the regulator or overheated stator/rotor/diode board?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

You haven't encountered the Reeeeee! of the inverter putting up a fuss because of too low battery/system voltage yet, have you?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

No, the inverter hasn't fussed due to low voltage. But it can?

As for the set point, I don't think it is due to too much heat. I think it is designed that way. Both of the regulators I've tried did exactly the same thing - they go to 14.3ish on startup and then gradually come back down to 13.3ish.

I'd read about this before, but here's a blurb I found here. And that 60C (140F) is easy to reach in the confines of a Bullnose engine compartment with a big block lurking about, and my regulators both seem to be following that "curve".

I'm going to go look to see if I have any documentation in the Ford pubs on alternators and regulators...

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Every vehicle inverter I've ever had will screech if it doesn't have enough voltage coming in.
Audible a!arm is far better than going to bed with the AC on and waking up to a very dead battery.

I understand temperature compensation. And I also understand how temperature affects almost any chemical reaction (like battery charging)
But I wasn't aware that these regulators put compensation into action at temperatures as low as 60(C)

Sure it makes sense. But again, consider the points I make about how heat shedding off a under cooled alternator might not reflect what's actually happening at the battery.
Though in an example like idle and an alternator overload in extreme freezing conditions the battery should be heating up fairly quickly.
*** visions of old DieHard ads at -40° in International Falls***.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Some good points Jim.

First, for reference, My 1994 Taurus had a 50 amp fuse feeding a dual input to the relay module on top of the radiator for the single two speed cooling fan. The dual set I have on my konvertible are from a 1999 Countour, they were fed with a 60 amp fuse, I have them currently fed through a 50 amp in the PDC that feeds both the low and high speed relays. The newer Crown Vics (1999) use a 60 amp fuse on their two speed fan.

As for batteries, I never had to deal with extreme cold, but I will say at 20° a Diesel with summer weight oil is a bear to start if it will at all. Heat, I had a car that would kill a Diehard in 18 mos from heat. I never could find the heat shield that was supposed to be on the engine side of the battery. Car was a 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire and the turbocharger inlet pipe came off the front of the right exhaust manifold, went up, turned left over the valve cover, then back into the turbine side of the Garrett turbocharger. The vertical portion was maybe 4" from the battery that sat on a 45° angle in the right front corner of the engine compartment.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

None of the Ford pubs I have say boo about the voltage/temp bit. And that includes the Bullnose FSM's, the 1995 FSM, and the two training booklets on Automotive Electrical Systems and Automotive Electrical Systems Review.

But the '95 FSM did provide the chart below, which isn't very comforting as at my 640 RPM idle the output looks to be ~45 amps. And if there is a "knee" it is around 800 RPM, at which point we are all the way up to 65 amps.

So it'll be quite interesting to see what this alternator puts out, and I should know later today. However, Power Bastards says theirs puts out 110+ at idle, although they didn't specify what RPM idle is. But they say it puts out 220 at 1200 engine RPM, so maybe I could get around 150 at 900, which isn't a bad "fast idle". So I do want to see an output curve from them.

As to your point about alternator temps and battery temps, yes & yes. The battery probably doesn't get nearly as warm as the alternator given that it is up out of the air stream from the radiator. And yes, it would be nice to cool the alternator, which it turns out will be quite easy.

In the pic below I'm showing that I can put that cold air fitting on the opening in the radiator support and its output will point roughly at the alternator. But I could easily add a short piece of the cold air ducting and take it right up to the air inlet holes of the alternator so it could pull air from in front of the radiator even when the truck isn't moving.

The only minor problem is that I have the siren for the security system mounted there and pointing through that hole, so I'll have to move it. No big deal.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill - The Spal fans that Scott is using pull 19A each at full tilt. So with PWM that could probably be brought down to 15 or so per fan except at worst case. And the circuit would have to be fused for probably 50A.

But I'm not ready to add another 30A load unless I do upgrade the alternator. Yes it would only happen when sitting still, and it would probably be only 15A if I'm running the winch as I won't need to be running the A/C so only one of the fans would probably come on. But I'm not ready to go there.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I'd really like to see the rotor and stator windings Powerbastards use in their alternators, because I doubt they could achieve that through regulator and diode board alone.
And again, note that they are using the smaller diameter (4-hole) case!

If it were me I wouldn't get invested in finding a solution to a cooling problem I wasn't certain I actually have.
I know that may be counter to how you work Gary, so have at it if you feel the juice is worth the squeeze.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

I am not sure of the physical size of the ones on the Flexes, but they are pretty potent.

I don't know if (a) they can be converted to a standard regulator or (b) if the EEC-V and BE have the capability to control one.

The latter would probably be what Gary "needs" for his issue. First to raise the idle speed and second to tell the alternator to increase it's output when a major load is on the electrical system. The output wire I believe said 4 ga at the stud terminal.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Is the Flex a 4G or 6G alternator?

Either way it's computer controlled and not a stand alone swap.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Rusty_S85

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

No, the inverter hasn't fussed due to low voltage. But it can?

As for the set point, I don't think it is due to too much heat. I think it is designed that way. Both of the regulators I've tried did exactly the same thing - they go to 14.3ish on startup and then gradually come back down to 13.3ish.

I'd read about this before, but here's a blurb I found here. And that 60C (140F) is easy to reach in the confines of a Bullnose engine compartment with a big block lurking about, and my regulators both seem to be following that "curve".

I'm going to go look to see if I have any documentation in the Ford pubs on alternators and regulators...

Thats the same with the Generators with the external regulator. My '56 Ford shop manual talks about having a temperature probe that snaps to the voltage regulator cover to measure voltage regulator temperature which you set to spec based off temperature to calibrate it as it is designed to vary voltage/amperage based off temperature to prevent boiling the water in the battery by putting too much voltage/amperage to the battery.

Maybe this will help, this is from the charging system section out of my '56 Ford shop manual and it goes into detail about temperature compensation for the voltage regulator. It also has a chart with ambient air temp and voltage output. I dont know how well it will mesh with the specs for the 3G but it might help give an idea since I doubt Ford would have moved too far off of these settings.

I would have expected with more modern alternators like the 3G that they would have maintained volage but only vary the amperage based off regulator temperature to prevent the boiling of the water in the battery. But I guess Ford couldnt get it to work just varying the amperage alone and has the voltage reduce as well. Which is a shame cause the NOS Motorcraft GR818 regulator I bought to swap to the 3G alternator I get has a voltage set point of 14.6V and I was hopeful that the voltage wouldnt drop below 13.0v since I know with my current 1G alternator when I come to an idle my H4 halogen silver star ultra headlights would dim slightly and my Dealer AC blower motor would slow down slightly. I was hopeful that I wouldnt run into this kind of issue with the 3G upgrade. Guess I will have to give it a go and see what happens.

"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2

Gary Lewis

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

Jim - I don't have a cooling problem, but I'll speak to that on Big Blue's Transformation thread in a bit.

Bill - Thanks, but I don't want to change to a different style alternator. I'm pretty sure that there are 3G's that do what I am looking for, but we shall see.

Rusty - The regulator doesn't directly control the current. Instead it controls the voltage and the current is what it is. (I=E/R) But I wasn't aware that way back in the 50's they were varying the voltage based on temp.

I don't know if all 3G regulators have this function built in. But the two I have certainly do. Maybe yours won't?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Lima Delta

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

"Unfortunately, we do not have the flow charts available for each alternator, but we do believe that our alternators are well equipped to perform at a high quality of standard and are made to last. We hope you’ll give our alternators and a try and that you’ll agree with us."

Thoughts, please?

This just sounds like the kind of meaningless canned reply I would expect from an outsourced customer service agency. It's really hard to say if this says anything about the engineering of the product. It may just mean that the customer service end of DB has gone downhill... but who knows.

In any case, I hope the product is still good - I just yesterday bought a DB alternator off amazon! lol

While we're talking about 3G conversions, I found the 3G page very useful all-in-all, except the "choosing an alternator" tab was a little confusing at times. But I was able to sort things out by reading through the various threads on the subject.
I ended up going with model AFD0028 130A with 8.25" mount spacing (which is referenced on the 3G page).

Lucas
"The truck" - 1985 regular cab F250 4x4 - 351W HO, C6
"Beige Beast" (project) - 1981 regular cab F250 4x4 - 300 straight six, T18

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Specifically an *alternator* cooling problem.
i.e. the heat of the alternator itself is adversely effecting the regulator.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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