Coil slosh?

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Coil slosh?

Ford F834
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Brand new coil... should it slosh when you shake it? Both of the OEM ones I have do not.

The back story:

On Friday my ‘81 left me on the side of the road. I went to kingman to buy a used table saw and it was running rough and would not climb a 6% grade (empty) without downshifting. I pressed on because I wanted the saw and many others on the Facebook group were interested. On my way home I’d started to cut out and then died and would not restart. I was in a bad spot on the I-40 on ramp, I popped the hood but I couldn’t see anything obvious. I was able to start it, but it was still cutting out and running rough. The only change was I had jiggled the horse shoe connector on the coil. I got it into a parking lot and swapped out the coil with a spare I had under the seat. I cleaned the contacts and applied dielectric grease. It ran much better but it still isn’t right. It didn’t cut out but was still a bit rough and had no power in high gear. Today I am replacing the ICM and the coil. If that does not do it my suspicions will turn to the distributor pick up.

When I bought the coil I asked for the earlier type with threaded lugs instead of the slip on horse shoe contacts. I don’t like that arrangement, it’s just not all that secure. I will be putting eyelet connectors on the wires. But neither of my old ones sloshed. Is my replacement coil defective?

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
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I've never heard a coil slosh.  I think that one may be suspect.  I'd take that one back and see if the others they have slosh.

But if it is still running rough you have other problems.  I'm guessing the module/ICM is the issue.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

Dorsai
In reply to this post by Ford F834
Ford F834 wrote
Brand new coil... should it slosh when you shake it? Both of the OEM ones I have do not.
I bought a new coil a couple of months ago, and it sloshed - and it's on the truck now running fine.  The old one (which was also running fine when I pulled it, and is now my spare) sloshes as well.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Coil slosh?

Ford F834
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Thanks. That’s good to know. I’ll give it a try and see what it does. Gary, I am also putting in a new module. Normally I don’t like to change more than one thing at a time but in this case I just need it fixed. The truck = our water supply... hopefully it will be fixed.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

85lebaront2
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
I'll bet the Mopar one does, they were still oil filled into the mid to late 70s. The important thing on a coil, it HAS to match the type of ignition system, ie a breaker point coil will not work properly on electronic ignition and the higher output ignition coils may destroy the electronics if the system wasn't made for them.
Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
85lebaront2 wrote
I'll bet the Mopar one does, they were still oil filled into the mid to late 70s.
I'll take your word for it, Bill.  Haven't had it off for yonks.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
Poly Clorinated Biphenyl's  are great, aren't they?
Mounting the coil vertically means the fluid won't leak all over the place.

Absolutely, the primary resistance has to be compatible with the switching mechanism.

I've never had a problem with the horseshoe clip, but did have the ground wire break internally from vibration.
I couldn't figure a good way to solder it without melting the brass out of the plastic it was molded into, so I bought a new one for $4.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Coil slosh?

Ford F834
Administrator
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
85lebaront2 wrote
I'll bet the Mopar one does, they were still oil filled into the mid to late 70s. The important thing on a coil, it HAS to match the type of ignition system, ie a breaker point coil will not work properly on electronic ignition and the higher output ignition coils may destroy the electronics if the system wasn't made for them.
What is the difference in these coils? When I converted the old 240 straight six to electronic ignition I left the old coil on it. I just now changed the coil in my ‘81 to a threaded lug unit that I asked for as a 1966 F100 spec and it runs as it did before. If it is bad for some reason I will change back.

The update is that the new coil and new ignition module made zero change. It is still rough, especially under load and has no power.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Rough under load could be spark, but it could be fuel.  Have you put a spark tester on to see what color the spark is?

If it is spark, it could be the wires.  Under load the pressure goes up in the cylinders and that makes it harder to jump the gap in the plugs.  So the voltage builds and sometimes finds another way to ground - out of the wire.

And you've not changed out the pickup in the dizzy?

But your fuel pump could be failing.  Less likely than spark, but a possibility.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

Ford F834
Administrator
Hmmm, I don’t have a spark tester Gary. I might have to pick one up. The wires are relatively new. I replaced a lot of things when I had the random stalling problem before. The pick up in the distributor is just as it was when David sent it to me. The fuel pump was also replaced around that time (trying to track down the problem) so it’s less than a year old. Not that ~that means anything with the quality of parts house replacements... but it is recent. The carb is just a JY take-off, and is on my suspect list... but the intermittent cutting in and out really seems electrical. When it died and didn’t want to restart I pulled the air cleaner and moved the throttle linkage. I had fuel jets so I moved on to checking the ignition related wires.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Ford F834
Ford F834 wrote
What is the difference in these coils? When I converted the old 240 straight six to electronic ignition I left the old coil on it. I just now changed the coil in my ‘81 to a threaded lug unit that I asked for as a 1966 F100 spec and it runs as it did before. If it is bad for some reason I will change back.
The difference is in the ratio of primary:secondary windings.
This determines spark voltage. i.e. 20,000:100 = 13V in 26,000V spark (in a perfect world)
But, the more turns (wire length) the more primary resistance.

Points will toast from arcing if the resistance is too high.
A transistor switches faster (more dwell) and doesn't have that problem.

That's why you see "for electronic ignition only" listed on a coil with pins and not studs.
And also why a resistor is run with DSII.

Too much dwell will have the primary saturated, and then the windings become a toaster.
So, electricity -to a point- feeds the magnetic field. Beyond that point, is forced to become heat.
Heat breaks down the windings insulation, and the coil fails.

ETA: Pertronix and the like limit the dwell internally, so they can plug-and-play with older points systems.
There is no points wear or adjustment. The capacitor fires into the coil quickly eliminating overheating.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Coil slosh?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ford F834
At the very least get a coil intended for electronic ignitions.

Getting one intended for points, and using it with the resistor wire in 'run' is not going to get you a strong spark.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ford F834
You can test the spark's color by pulling a plug wire and sticking an old plug in and laying it on the block.  You are checking for a white or blue spark.  Anything less is bad.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

Ford F834
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Thank you for the explanation. I wish I had that knowledge before I cut the horse shoe off 😔. That’s not here or there, I will put it back and get the right coil. I know the coil isn’t my issue with three of them behaving the same. Gary I will see if I have an old plug and look at the spark tonight if I find time. I also want to check the timing and investigate if I developed any vacuum leaks.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In the dark is the perfect time to check spark.  I've seen the whole engine bay look like a circus.  And you might try squirting water on it to see what happens.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
The general test for a good high output system, it should easily jump a 1/4" gap with a nice hot spark.

Another point to keep in mind, the coil wire, it carries X times the load the individual plug wires do, where X = number of cylinders. It can fail internally, and the only indication is usually the spark jumping at the coil.

I used to sell a unit at my shop, the Delta Mark 10 CDI system, it was a capacitive discharge system that went on a breaker point system. These used a .040 plug gap and were very reliable. Biggest issue you had was the points building up a film of oil on them and not triggering the unit. There were updates, first a Mark 10B with a variable dwell feature to solve misfire issues on Chrysler engines, then a Mark 10C with some other improvements. The B and C models had a push button on/off switch on the main board so it could be run as a conventional points system. They had a breakerless conversion kit, but it only worked on Delco 8 cyl or V6 distributors as it needed the gap between the advance cam and pickup to be a constant distance.
Bill
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: Coil slosh?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I think I still have a Mark 10.  And as you probably remember, Bill, I ran it on the '72 F250 390.  You are certainly correct about the oil-on-the-points problem.  Ran out of gas in the front tank and switched to the rear tank, but it didn't catch.  Long story short, after disassembling the Q-Jet on the side of the road I realized that the points had fouled.  Ran a piece of paper through them and off we went.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Coil slosh?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ford F834
You can buy a ring terminal type coil meant for electronic ignitions if the horseshoe bothers you!

But a points type coil meant for a '66 is not going to work well with DSII.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Coil slosh?

Ford F834
Administrator
I will see if I can find one. I like that the horse shoe guards the terminals from accidental contact, but it seems like a loose janky connection for something that important.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 SRW under construction-- 7.3 IDIT R&D 64mm intercooled turbo 150cc IP stage 1 cam main girdle 13" Southbend clutch ZF-5 + GearVendors overdrive 4.10 axle gears hydroboost brakes

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4 conversion-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering
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Re: Coil slosh?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I think Accell sells one.

I will say that 100's of millions of DSII Ford's and AMC's have driven billions and billions of miles and the coil connector hasn't been a known weak point.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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