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Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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Gary Lewis

Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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Bob/Nothing Special has suggested that I put a bypass switch for the clutch switch in the starter circuit so I can start with the clutch engaged should I need to do so while on the trail. So this thread is to work through my plans to do just that.

All I have to do is to simulate the clutch switch with a closed switch of some kind, but since it is pulling in the fender-mounted starter relay I'm thinking a mechanical switch or relay would be better than something solid state.

My first thought was to use a simple pushbutton, but Bob suggested that I use something that doesn't require you to hold the switch on as I might need to be using that hand to steer. So he suggested I just put an on/off toggle switch on it. But knowing that my kids and grandkids are going to drive the truck I don't want something that could easily cause a problem by being left on. So my plan right now is to use a relay with a 10 second engagement time, and trigger it with a momentary pushbutton switch.

There are a lot of relays available that delay before coming on, but these two come on for a specified length of time:

Module: This is the thing on the left, below, and it has a variable delay up to 10 seconds. It comes with the pushbutton switch as well as an "on" LED. However the LED is on the board so my plan is to determine the voltage supplied to the LED and get a panel mount one to put beside the switch. I have one of the relay units on order as well as a small project box in which to mount it.

Cube Relay: I've ordered the cube relay on the right with a 10 second engagement period, and it would be the easiest to use given the 1/4" connections. However it is apparently literally coming from China as it might not be here until April Fools Day. Seriously. But I could epoxy a tab on it and tie it under the dash and wiring would be easy.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

BigBrother-84

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Gary Lewis wrote

So he suggested I just put an on/off toggle switch on it. But knowing that my kids and grandkids are going to drive the truck I don't want something that could easily cause a problem by being left on.

Which would be exact same situation than Big Bro, living without a clutch safety switch.

Gary Lewis wrote

So my plan right now is to use a relay with a 10 second engagement time, and trigger it with a momentary pushbutton switch.

I like the idea!

An adjustable delay would be great too.

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Administrator

Doesn't Big Bro have a safety switch? I thought they were introduced in '84.

The relay unit I have on order adjusts from 0 to 10 seconds, but the adjustment will be way up under the dash in a project box. I thought about using a 555 timer and with it I could put a dial on the dash to adjust it, but I think 10 seconds will be about right. And if it isn't the instructions say I can change out a capacitor and extend it a bit.

The idea is to allow starting in gear when in low range, and probably 1st gear, without having to push in the clutch and potentially rolling backwards. The PMGR starter is quite capable of moving the the truck in about any situation, and if I need a bit more power I can parallel the batteries with the push of another button.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by BigBrother-84

When I had “Big Red” which was a 460/T19/4x4 the clutch safety was removed by prior owners or not sure if it came with one. There was no provision to add one.

I needed a Robust neutral safety switch with easily available parts.

I came up with this solution below which used a firewall mount push switch (capable of 20A) from a 90s accord or Camry. A clutch pedal mounted L bracket would push it when the clutch was depressed all the way down. I specifically had it this way so the switch worked only during start ups.

Pic below just shows the initial version. I cleaned it up to look better.

Vivek

- 'Big Blue 2WD' - 1984 F350 RWD 460/C6
- 1978 Bronco with the heart of a 1986 F250 Bullnose - under restoration
- "Bonded Bronco" -1985 Bronco - 302 4-speed fuel injected, Hibernating future project

viven44

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Thanks for sharing Gary. Looks like the most optimal solution. I would think the probability is low for someone to unintentionally activate the switch and try to start the vehicle within 10 seconds.

Nothing Special

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

.... The idea is to allow starting in gear when in low range, and probably 1st gear, without having to push in the clutch and potentially rolling backwards....

And if anyone wants a visual of why that might be important or how it works...

Here is a Jeep going up a VERY steep hill (I "put tires on it" in 2022, but chose not to actually try driving up it). He stalls the engine near the top and the Jeep comes to a safe stop with the engine holding it from rolling back down. He's given the advice to "crank yourself over" but chooses to hold the brake and push the clutch in to restart the engine. This could've gone VERY badly, but don't worry, the video is still rated G (or maybe a weak PG). (the applicable stuff starts at 9:11, the link should start you there)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMZS-ChLdeU&t=551s

And here's a time where the driver did follow the advice. It was a much easier situation (I'm not sure the guy in the first video COULD have cranked it over), but it shows the concept at work. (starting at 15:08)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2tf5SJzg1E&t=908s

Both of these vehicles are under-powered, and have carbs that aren't working well. And at least the second Jeep doesn't have very low gearing. Those are definitely factors that make this more necessary. And in all likelihood Big Blue, with his fuel injected 460 and granny-low 5 speed, won't have any need of this. So (as I told Gary already) it isn't strictly needed for this trip. But it is a nice tool to have in the toolbox, just in case.

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

viven44

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Thanks for sharing this idea. With a 460 and granny low, My truck "Big Red" would literally 'take off' the couple of times I forgot to press the clutch.. there was so much torque (Still scares me to this day!!). I can see it working a lot better on Big Blue vs. these videos.

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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In reply to this post by Nothing Special

Yikes! I do NOT want to "put tires on" that! But I sure get the reason why I want/need to be able to "crank it over."

However, as you said, the EFI is going to make a world of difference. Those Jeeps were pig-rich, maybe from altitude and maybe from angle, but Big Blue won't be. And he's got low enough gearing to make cranking it easy, peasy.

So while I don't think I need to be able to crank it over, I sure want to be able to. If I can I won't need to.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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In reply to this post by viven44

viven44 wrote

Thanks for sharing this idea. With a 460 and granny low, My truck "Big Red" would literally 'take off' the couple of times I forgot to press the clutch.. there was so much torque (Still scares me to this day!!). I can see it working a lot better on Big Blue vs. these videos.

Trust me, when the engine cranks and you are in 1st, even in 2Hi, the truck MOVES. I had Big Blue connected to the trailer with the trailer's jack down hard, and accidentally hit the key. It started and took off, trailer, jack, and all. That's when I discovered that someone had bypassed the clutch safety.

Up through 83, I think, there was no clutch safety switch. But when it was introduced in '84 people got used to having it and didn't think about the consequences of starting in gear. Years ago one guy hit the key on Dad's truck and almost went through the garage door - into Janey's GLK. People don't understand that with low gearing things are going to GO someplace.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

I can believe all that. Mine was an 85 but rigged up so the clutch safety was gone entirely including harness. Yes it is probably the most terrifying thing I have seen with these Granny low/460 setups. I still have compulsive thoughts every so often from recalling the couple of times this happened (what if someone were in front of the truck, like a child)... It is a risk beyond anything else owning these trucks, so I had to immediately address that.

So I think you will really enjoy taking advantage of it on the trail (literally the one time you REALLY need it !!).

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Add complexity, remove reliability.....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

mat in tn

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

now that I understand the "extreme" situation that you are keeping a preparedness for, I get it. also, I get why the manufacturers don't. you are adding complexity to the vehicle and moving it more to a special purpose vehicle. I have done a similar task in diagnosing a vehicle. my daughter's car had what I Thought was an "internal bleed". a failing in the fuel system to keep residual pressure for the next start. after messing with it a few times and not wanting to throw money and parts at guesses, I ran a short bypass jumper to the fuel pump relay and mounted a momentary contact switch in a nearly hidden area she could see and reach. she never got stranded again, yet I had to ask her if it was needed. yes. this worked until the leak became findable and then fixed.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Administrator

Gary's that exceptional trombone repair man....

I can't imagine the brain cells that died in cramming all that stuff into Big Blue.

But if it keeps you occupied and makes you happy, you're in a better place than I am.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

viven44

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Jim, I get what Gary is doing since most of it is stuff that can fixed relatively easily/cost effectively with off the shelf components and its personalized stuff.

What I don't get is the manufacturers cramming so much complexity into newer vehicles that the consumer doesn't need. A lot of that complexity involves custom useless patented components that only has 1 source. They have taken a page from Apple's playbook (I have first-hand experience working at a place like that selling components to that OEM-- but Apple is better about picking features that the consumer needs). A large part of that is planned obsolescence, so when those unnecessary things start to break the consumer is reminded that may be its time for an "upgrade". If the consumer keeps the vehicle, it's good for the service industry to replace those broken components. You probably saw that video about the taillight repair costing over $5000!

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

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In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Yes, I am adding complexity. But it is not "mission critical" complexity - if it doesn't work at some point we won't get stranded, we just might lose the clutch safety if it fails closed. But it'll still start. And there will be a connector that can be unplugged to take the thing out of the circuit to put the safety back.

And yes, it keeps me happy. And gives me serious bragging rights. Yesterday I got a note from a guy I used to work for giving me a link to his Factory Five '35 Ford Pickup build - on the Factory Five forum. (Whatever forum platform they are using is NOT what we are looking for!)

I read his build thread and then sent him a link to mine and commented that Big Blue probably has as many mod's as his truck does. Then I listed a few, including factory EFI, winch, 3G, inverter, front/rear cameras which he also has, onboard air, etc.

He came back this morning saying "Wow Gary..... that's one heck of a truck. I didn't see any pics. Send me a couple when you get a minute. Take care driving that beast!" So I sent him a few pics, inc one in Animas Forks near Ouray, and one in Valles Caldera in NM and told him about those trips as well as the upcoming ones.

Bottom line, I'm having fun. And I'm not concerned about complexity, especially at this point after having installed a 1996 EFI system including fuel tanks and pumps as well as all the necessary wiring for the sensors and ECU. So a little more for a function I hope I won't need but will LOVE if I do won't hurt.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Nothing Special

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

In reply to this post by mat in tn

mat in tn wrote

now that I understand the "extreme" situation that you are keeping a preparedness for, I get it....

One thing I perhaps need to clarify is that the first video I linked is not representative of the level of "extreme" that I will be leading Big Blue on! As I said, I wasn't willing to drive Pluto up that, and I have a lot more experience than Gary. I included that video because it's a good example of why starting in gear can be important.

The second video is closer to what we'll be doing (although we'll be pushing comfort zones a little more than that). If the guy in this video hadn't started it in gear he'd have probably rolled his back tires back off the ledge and stopped there. It wouldn't have been at all dangerous, but it would have been a little spooky (especially for his wife if she was in the passenger seat!) and he'd have to climb the ledge again, which hadn't been a piece of cake the first time. That's what this mod will buy for Gary: insurance toward a little lower chance of freaking out his passenger and a little easier time climbing a ledge.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Administrator

You guys are going to have an EPIC trip!
(at least, Gary will)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Administrator

Right, at least Gary will have fun. But I have to remember that this is also Bob & Lesley's vacation, so they need to have fun as well. And it is Janey's vacation, so I have to ensure I don't freak her completely out as she will almost always be in the truck since she can't be in the sun.

And, Bob, I know that you know that I know you aren't going to push me to try anything like that first video. So you are saying that for the other's sake, not mine.

But it IS going to be an EPIC vacation!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Nothing Special

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

I know that you know that I know that you know that... oh, nevermind

Yes, that was for the other's sake!

And I'm not worried about it being a good vacation for Lesley and me. I'm hoping that it's still fun for you and Janey if we push your comfort zones with the trails we've planned. If you can have fun on those trails I'm sure we will! And if not, we'll figure some milder trails to do and it will still be fun (just maybe not quite as epic

Gary Lewis

Re: Clutch Switch Bypass For Big Blue

Administrator

We will all have FUN!

As for getting ready for the trip, I got the 10-second relay module & switch in as well as the project boxes. The module just barely fits in the project box, height-wise, but it does fit.

We are taking Big Blue on an outing tomorrow to test the new seats, but perhaps Friday I can power the relay up, make sure it works, and determine the voltage to the on-board LED. Then I can order a panel-mount LED to replace or parallel it and move on to get the panel ready to install the switch & LED. I'm planning to powder coat the panel to match the one the aftermarket gauges are in. And I need to order the white-on-clear label tape for my Brother label maker.

Also, the hand throttle came in today, but that'll be discussed in another thread: Hand Throttle For Big Blue.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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