Borg Warner 1356 PTO Style Transfer Case [Canada]

I know little about the 4x4 trucks, but thought I'd post this ad in case anybody was wanting one of these PTO cases. I don't know how "rare" they are, but my Google searches tell me they were optional on the F350 4x4 cab/chassis trucks? They were used to run hydraulic pumps in some applications?

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1403665676&requestSource=b

This guy parts out Ford trucks by the way...mostly 1987-1997 stuff, but Bullnoses once in a while (They're pretty rare up here these days). I've purchased parts from him, and he will ship. He supplied the M5OD crossmember for my 5spd swap.

That's interesting.  I didn't even know that there was a transfer case with PTO capabilities.  My transmission(s) have the same plate that is shown, so I don't know that I'd need it on the t-case.

And, I'm not really sure what I'd use a PTO for.  I've heard that a winch can be run off one, but don't know how that works.  Does a shaft go from the tranny to the winch in the front or back?  Is the winch run by hydraulics?  Is the winch in the center and the winch lines run to the front or rear?

Never seen it on a transfer case either.
My 86 1 ton parts truck (was a 500 gallon gas tank truck) has the pto unit on the transmission. Shaft goes from it to a Roper fuel pump that is hanging under the frame in a cradle and piped into the tank.

I've seen postings of pto powered winches on the backs of tow trucks or gin pole trucks. Never looked underneath one but I've always assumed that the pto shaft went straight back to gear box and then up 90 degrees to the unit on the bed.

Gary Lewis wrote

...I don't know that I'd need it on the t-case.

You also have to consider clearance for the PTO you want to install.  In some cases, there's more space by the t-case than by the trans.

Gary Lewis wrote

Does a shaft go from the tranny to the winch in the front or back?

Yes, that's one way, and that type of winch was a factory option on early Broncos.

Gary Lewis wrote

Is the winch run by hydraulics?

Yes, that's another option.  But most light-truck hydraulics are run from a Saginaw PS pump.

Gary Lewis wrote

Is the winch in the center and the winch lines run to the front or rear?

Yes, that's how most rollback wreckers are built, using a PTO hydraulic pump & hydraulic Ramsey winch.

You can also install a PTO generator & have 220VAC anywhere, but it's an expensive way to drive a generator, and a lot of weight to add to the truck.

Interesting!  Hadn't thought about maybe having more space around the t-case than the tranny.  But it makes sense.

And, I didn't realize that early Broncos had an option for a shaft-driven winch.  I guess with the 60 amp alternators, which required 3000 RPM to hit that output (I have charts from the dealer facts books that show that), it might have made sense to run the winch off the engine via a PTO.  But today when we have alternators that kick out 130 amps with far less engine RPM, and the advent of much stronger permanent-magnet motors, that doesn't make sense.

And, I didn't know that some hydraulics are run off a Saginaw PS pump.  But, that makes sense as the Sag has a lot of capability.  And with the serpentine belts we can use that capability.

Cool!

Gary Lewis wrote

...we have alternators that kick out 130 amps with far less engine RPM, and the advent of much stronger permanent-magnet motors, that doesn't make sense.

Modern vehicles have higher-output alternators because they NEED them.  Where a fully-loaded early Bronco might have needed 30 Amps to run everything electrical that could be had on the truck plus every 12V accessory you could buy in your hometown at that time, modern trucks commonly need upwards of 100 for A/C, lights, stereo, electronic dash & powertrain controls, TPMS, parking sensors, heated/cooled seats, heated mirrors & windows...; and that's BEFORE you add off-road lights, air compressors, power inverters, trailers, & winches.  So even with a modern winch motor (which can still draw over 200A near stall) & alternator (which will overheat if loaded at idle for more than a few seconds), a PTO or hydraulic winch can still make a lot of sense.

Bull . . tally the amps being used and show me where you get anywhere close to 130. Isn't going to happen . .not even close. Oh, I've been told "my electric fan need 30 A" . Wow, people are ignorant and need to be more educated in the subject. Your fan might draw "somewhere" close to 20A when it kicks in, but drops to about 5-7A to run. We don't outfit electrical systems for max start up amps in our vehicle. if we did that in our houses, we wouldn't have 150-200A services running the entire house . . would we? I'd love to discuss this, but you're going to have to show me where those amps are really needed.

PetesPonies wrote

Bull . . tally the amps being used and show me where you get anywhere close to 130.

I know this wouldn't be the norm for most vehicles, but my diesel Volkswagen has a factory 140 amp alternator. My car also has a factory "supplementary electric heater" that draws something crazy like 85 amps when it's being used (It has a 100 amp fuse). Four glow plugs that draw something like 10 amps each, plus all the other doodads...it adds up quick. However...that's a bit of a unique set-up, and not all that common in the grand scheme of things.

What is the stock 1G alternator in my 84 F150? Isn't it only 30 or 40 amps? With no options on my truck, not even a radio, I have to laugh when I think about the fact that most of the time my alternator is only running my spark plugs.

PetesPonies wrote

...show me where you get anywhere close to 130.

My Bronco is EFI, so it's slightly higher than a carb (EEC & electric fuel pump), but when I was running e-fans (from a Tempo, IIRC), it would commonly draw over 120A total for the truck when the fans, lights, radio, & A/C were running.  Eventually, the high draw cooked the alternator.

PetesPonies wrote

...electric fan need 30 A...

That seems about right to me.  The Mark VIII fan (which is a popular choice) draws around that much running (~40A startup), and my fans were slightly higher.

Rembrant wrote

What is the stock 1G alternator in my 84 F150?

Depends how big it was - do you remember what its case looked like?



This is a 100A 1G:

Rembrant wrote

...my alternator is only running my spark plugs.

Actually, the ignition module & coil; plus the instruments, lights (turn signals), & maintaining the battery.

Steve83 wrote

Depends how big it was - do you remember what its case looked like?



This is a 100A 1G:

Rembrant wrote

...my alternator is only running my spark plugs.

Actually, the ignition module & coil; plus the instruments, lights (turn signals), & maintaining the battery.

LOL, yes, I know it is running the coil and ignition module...I just didn't word that properly...when I said spark plugs, I meant the spark plugs and associated devices required to run them. I just meant that cruising down the road with no lights on the power requirements of my truck are very very low.

I'll check my alternator when I get home. The original 1984 factory alternator is still in the truck. I thought it was only a 40 amp unit. When I looked at the build sheet it only showed a 40 amp ALT. My truck has no radio, and doesn't even have a cigarette lighter, so it's probably safe to assume that they didn't install a heavy duty alternator in an otherwise bare bones base model truck.

Electric heaters are one of the largest amp draws there is  :)  Ovens, heaters, etc. Just think of your house. So if you wanted to run a heater, then yes you need a lot. But you are correct, not the norm  :) Wattage is
I ( amperage ) x E ( volts ),  so in a house your E is 120-240V. In a car, only 12-14V. See the huge amperage needed to achieve the desired wattage?

All I'm saying is if you think you "NEED" to upgrade to a larger amp alternator . . good chance you really don't. if your vehicle came with it, well just replace with a stock part. But many people think the amperage draw of your devices is a lot more than it is.I used the fan because that is one that is thrown at my often from the "hot rod" gang. First things to do to a car or truck, cold air intake, billet Chinese distributor, upgrade the alternator  LOL

We can agree to disagree, as I see a need for a 3G in Big Blue.

First, here's the link to the info on the Bullnose alternators: Electrical/Alternators.  As you will see, 40, 60, 70, and even 100 amp units were available.  But the 100's were typically used on ambulances from what I've read.

Now, for the need for an upgrade.  I have some charts that show that the alternators didn't reach the rated current output until 3000 engine RPM.  But the 2G ramped up much faster.  And the 3G went full-tilt by 2000 RPM.  In fact, the old RJM site said that the 3G put out more current at idle than the 1G at full tilt.

So, it isn't so much max current but at what RPM that current is available.  I rarely get to 3000 RPM in Big Blue, and even then it is only while accelerating, and then it drops to less than 2500.  And when I get the ZF5 in it'll cruise at 1900 RPM.

What I want is an alternator that will kick out lots of current when I'm winching w/o having to rev the engine significantly.  I do plan to put a switch on to trigger the EEC-IV systems's PTO function, which will cause the IAC to open and make it run quite a bit faster.  But it won't be all that fast, so the alternator needs to be upgraded.

Gary Lewis wrote

First, here's the link to the info on the Bullnose alternators: Electrical/Alternators.  As you will see, 40, 60, 70, and even 100 amp units were available.  But the 100's were typically used on ambulances from what I've read.

Yeah, Steve's link above shows the 100 amp ALT as the Heavy Duty, so that's not something you'd find in a bare bones truck like mine.

I just took a pic of the alternator in my 1984, which is the original unit. I've cleaned it up and painted it which is why it doesn't look like it's 35 years old.

Don't know if you can see that stamp, but it is 40A E4TF AA.



The alternator has been working fine, so I had no plans to change it until it failed. The only upgrades I have planned are to install a radio and speakers (nothing fancy) and a cigarette lighter/socket for charging my cell phone. I'm assuming the 40 amp ALT will be fine with that.

The 40 amp unit was likely standard on a base model truck? I dunno...maybe if you upgraded and ordered fancy things like a radio and a cigarette lighter you got a 60 amp?...LOL.

Gary, I will agree with you that some of the things you mention, would be a reason to have enough output at low RPMs. I do not know exactly what the output of those alternators are at a said RPM. Those are truck activities that certainly I am not involved in, but certainly some people are. But still, and this is important, your battery runs the electrical system. It has storage for a reason. Even the activities you describe, are not things that take place for a very long time. Therefore, it is absolutely acceptable to expect a battery to shoulder the burden, as long as there is time to "rejuice"  :) A manufacturer of automobiles must error on the overkill side for several reasons. The general public abuses things and then bitches about it as soon as something goes wrong. Don't you love us?

Guys - I've added some info to the alternators page (Electrical/Alternators) today to include the info I found in the dealer facts books.  That includes this that is shown on the main tab.

The 40 amp unit was standard on the F-Series and Bronco

The 60 amp unit was optional on the F-Series.  But on the Bronco it was only optional from 1980 through 1983.  However, as of 1984 it was only available on the Bronco "when included with certain optional equipment not not available separately as an option".

The 70 amp unit was only available on the Bronco "when included with certain optional equipment not not available separately as an option".  And one of those was the snow plow prep package, which included the 70 amp alternator.

The 100 amp unit was not available on either the F-Series or the Bronco

And the output table, with RPM, as well as the output charts are shown on the Output vs RPM tab.

See what you think.

That's cool to have the RPM output info. If you ( or someone over the years ) have done some pulley swapping, you need to know you ratio between your crank pulley and alternator pulley to relate it to engine RPM. But you can see it's about 1400- 1600 engine RPms that gives your full output. So really not that high at all, if your vehicle is moving. If you are idling, you still are getting in the 90% range of output.

Yep, it is important to know the pulley ratio when you go swapping pulleys.  Otherwise you may overspeed the alternator, throwing the windings out, or underspeed it and not get much charging.

Nice!

Rembrant wrote

I've cleaned it up and painted it ...

I hope all the mounting surfaces from the rectifier, to the alt case, to the bracket, to the head/block are clean & bare-metal.

Rembrant wrote

...I had no plans to change it until it failed. The only upgrades I have planned are to install a radio and speakers (nothing fancy) and a cigarette lighter/socket for charging my cell phone. I'm assuming the 40 amp ALT will be fine with that.

There is no DISadvantage to upgrading now to the 130A 3G, and a few advantages: more availability & reliability, and more capacity for anything you might ever do (like unplanned jump-charging/-starting).

PetesPonies wrote

...just replace with a stock part.

Never a good idea with the 2G, and not worth the cost for a 1G.  The 3G is better in every way, and not significantly more expensive.  At JYs, a good 3G can usually be had for $10-40.

Gary Lewis wrote

What I want is an alternator that will kick out lots of current when I'm winching w/o having to rev the engine significantly.

No such thing.  There is no free energy - you have to put a lot in to get out a noticeable amount.  And at low RPM, you're not putting much energy into the alt.  It's also not particularly efficient in the lower RPM range at converting mechanical energy to electrical.  So if you tried to force it to put out more, you'd just heat it up & probably melt the belt.  The most-efficient alternator is probably NOT 50% efficient, so you'll always have to raise the RPMs for heavy loads (like winching, in particular).

Gary Lewis wrote

...the EEC-IV systems's PTO function...

I'm not aware of that.  AFAIK, that function didn't appear until the first EEC-V ('96), and only on gassers.  It took me a few years to find the Ford documentation on it, so I added it to this caption:



Do you have any documentation on an EEC-IV PTO function?

PetesPonies wrote

...your battery runs the electrical system.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it's not how I'd word it.  The battery is only "in charge"  when the alternator isn't working (KOEO).  In all other cases, the alternator is the higher voltage source, which makes it king.  If the alternator is overloaded, the battery will TRY to take up the slack, but the alt. will remain in overload.  And since the battery terminals are almost always points of high resistance (due to corrosion & abuse), it's never likely to actually supply as much current as it's really capable of.