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Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

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Gary Lewis

Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

I took a video today of the noise I'm hearing in the steering column. The notes with the video say:

I've been having a chuckling noise in what seemed like the dash on my 85 F250 when I hit bumps. And it was getting worse. Finally last Saturday night I tracked it down to the steering column. I have a bit of "end play" in the column and as it moves up and down on bumps I get that noise. But if I hold up on the steering wheel or push down on it to prevent movement I can stop the noise. So I took this video to document what I'm hearing.

And for those who are thinking, like I was, that it is the rubber of steering wheel hitting the collar of the column, unfortunately it isn't. I flooded that joint with RainX, which I've learned makes a nice lube for plastic as it sets up between the pieces - to no avail.

Looks like I'm going to have to pull the steering wheel to see if I can find the source of the noise and the reason why there's play in the column.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

I would say excessive play on the upper bearing, or if it is a tilt column, in the universal joint. I haven't had one of those columns in Darth in a long time. I believe, if it is a tilt column, there should be two bearings up top and probably a big spring that preloads the upper bearing down against the housing.

If you are still thinking about an E4OD later, you will need a different column anyway.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

The E4OD is in Dad's truck, and this is a non-tilting column. I don't see a spring, but do agree it is excessive play, although I don't know how you control play in the column.

Since Scott wrote up the how-to on rebuilding steering columns I'm going to tag him.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

This post was updated on .

I love non-tilt columns due to their simplicity and sturdiness. Interested to see what you find. From what I can tell the excess play looks like the steering shaft sliding in and out. I assume the shaft itself is one piece all the way from the wheel to the intermediate steering shaft. Maybe something simple in the retaining mechanisms (snap ring, even the nut loose)

Vivek

- 'Big Blue 2WD' - 1984 F350 RWD 460/C6
- 1978 Bronco with the heart of a 1986 F250 Bullnose - under restoration
- "Bonded Bronco" -1985 Bronco - 302 4-speed fuel injected, Hibernating future project

mat in tn

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

I will take "broken snap ring" in the office pool.

Nothing Special

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

In reply to this post by viven44

viven44 wrote

.... Maybe something simple in the retaining mechanisms (snap ring, even the nut loose)

Are you saying there might be a problem with the nut holding the steering wheel?

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

Nothing Special wrote

viven44 wrote

.... Maybe something simple in the retaining mechanisms (snap ring, even the nut loose)

Are you saying there might be a problem with the nut holding the steering wheel?

My father would have said "I resemble that."

There might be something to that theory. However, I think I see the problem. I'm wondering if I can move the Borgeson up to touch the inner race of the lower bearing, thereby eliminating the slop. And also lube that spot to ensure there's no noise if there is movement.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Nothing Special

Okay. I didn't mean to sound silly.... but you know how when you torque down something, you can get a false positive when things didn't quite settle down at the time. After driving, maybe things settled down and there is more play now.. Kindly of like wheel bearings, lug nuts, etc... Anyway just spit balling. I call it my secondary and alternate hypothesis just to consider everything even if they sound silly as my ex-boss used to say

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

When I saw that video, I was thinking the same.. Lube that sucker!!

I don't know if the solid shaft should move that way.. Should have a way to keep it locked. Something has developed play.

Unfortunately I don't have a manual transmission non-tilt column anymore to cross-check. The auto trans ones have a different construction with another tube for the shift housing but I can confirm 'Big Blue 2WD' doesn't have any play in the "Z axis".

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

I'm a bit confused about this as well. But you can see where I worked on this part of the truck starting in this post.

There are actually two shafts inside the steering column, the one the steering wheel attaches to and the one that the lower shaft attaches to. Those two slide inside/outside each other to provide the collapsing part of the column.

I pulled the lower one out when I installed the new lower bearing as it wouldn't go over the distorted lower end of the shaft. I had to put that shaft in the lathe and take out the distortion that was in it, as you can see in that post. But now there is some slop in the shaft/bearing and it clunks there - as well as moves up and down as shown in the video.

So I'm going to have to pull the Borgeson shaft, new lower bearing, and lower shaft out and figure out why there is slop. I have another lower shaft and may wind up using it. Or weld this one up and turn it back to just fit the bearing.

As you can see in the picture below, one of the allen bolts on the Borgeson goes through a hole in that shaft, so there's not much way to move the Borgeson up to ride against the inner race on the lower bearing. So I'm wondering about creating a shim so there's no up/down movement on the shaft.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Ok that makes sense. I didn’t recall the inner shaft being a 2 piece as well. It’s been a long time since I rebuilt the columns on my barnfinds. The automatic ones have all kinds of failure modes (shift housing cracking, internal rivets breaking, etc).. I have never been inside a manual/non-tilt so just guessing totally….

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

My confusion is probably because of that inner/outer shaft. If they slipped over each other easily then pulling up on the steering wheel wouldn't cause the other one to move - unless the friction of them sliding is greater than the friction between the lower shaft and the lower bearing. Which I'm guessing is the case.

So if I were to put a shim between the Borgeson and the lower bearing the steering wheel may still come up the same amount, but the movement will be between the inner and outer shaft. I think I'll do that as a test as I think a paint scraper may be about the right thickness, and then I'll know.

But the clearance between the lower shaft and the lower bearing has increased since I put all of that together because now I have a clunk when I pull & push up/down on the shaft.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

This post was updated on .

Here is a busted Auto/Tilt shaft that came off an 85 Bronco. I assume yours doesn’t have the upper U joint, but the upper and lower portions have considerable friction as the coupling between them has a couple of compression “sleeves”. I had to tap them apart with an “implement”.

The friction is so much so that the only way I have removed the shaft in the past is whole.. did not even know until now it is 2 piece :) In the past, I removed the lower end bearing which is secured by those three 1/4 inch nuts, the plastic housing off the lower shaft, removed the steering wheel, and snap ring, maybe a few other things.. don't recall exactly what else as its been too long... and the whole shaft just pulls out...

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

One more low-hanging fruit to check. Are these 3 screws all the way tight ? I don't know how/if they have an influence on the shaft but just another thought.

Really also think it has to do with the new bearing /housing and borgenson shaft rubbing against each other. A lot of metal of metal squeak is what I hear. The original bearing and surround is a "plastic" ?

Has the bearing worn down possibly rubbing against the shaft ? If you measure the ID, and compare it to previous that might help. There is possibly an "adaptation" to prevent that for a Borgensen.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

Not sure where those three screws are.

As for the noise, it is when the shaft in the steering column is pushed up through the new bearing. So it is the outer diameter of the lower shaft rubbing on the inner race of the bearing. I'm confident that a squirt of lube would stop the noise - for a while.

It doesn't have anything to do with the Borgeson shaft as it isn't touching the bearing until the shaft stops when the Borgeson hits the bearing. But the noise happens before those two hit, so it has to be the inner shaft rubbing on the ID of the inner race of the bearing.

But the shaft is slightly too small for the inner race so there's a bit of a clunk there. I'm going to make the shaft just the right size for the bearing to slip on with a bit of help so there's no clunk. And that will probably mean there will be no movement there, so no noise.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

BigBrother-84

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Gary, looking at the second video, it looks like if the bolt is hitting the bearing assy, when you pull up the steering?

If so, can a thick (and enough smooth) rubber gasket do the job, if placed between the two?

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Sounds like you have very little margin. You ground the shaft originally on the lathe as it was too big for the bearing, correct ? But then its too loose now which is why I wonder if it was loose from day 1 you fit the new bearing/shaft or if it has become loose due to constant rubbing and wear-down.

Just curious.. Does the Borgeson (I've finally spelt it correctly!) shaft have built-in dampening similar to a rag joint and the 2 piece construction of the factory intermediate shaft ? If so, ignore my comments about it having anything to do with this problem.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

Administrator

Jeff - I don't think the nut on the screw is hitting, but I'll check. I think parallax is the issue as the camera was farther back and makes it look like it hits. But my eye was more straight down and it didn't look to hit. Still, I'll check.

Vivek - My Borgeson doesn't have damping, but there is one that does. However, the noise happens when the lower shaft in the column slides up/down through the lower bearing, not when the shaft moves quickly in rotation, which is what the damping prevents. So I don't think this has anything to do with the Borgeson.

It appears to have everything to do with the lower shaft in the column. Your earlier pic shows the pieces in the interface between the upper and lower shaft that prevent vibration there, and that's surely why when I pull up on the steering wheel the two shafts move together rather than just the upper shaft sliding in the lower shaft.

But if the lower shaft was a tight fit in the bearing then the movement would be between the two shafts. And/or if the Borgeson was up against the inner race of the bearing it couldn't move.

So I plan to pull the Borgeson and the lower shaft out and re-work the shaft so there's a tight fit with the bearing. That'll both take the axial movement out, eliminating the chuckle, but also take out the side/side movement that is making a clunk.

As for the possibility of it having worn, the shaft isn't completely straight so when I turned it on the lathe the results weren't perfect. By that I mean it was tight here, loose there, etc. And apparently it is loose where it is currently meeting the bearing. So my re-work will require either a different shaft, which I have, or building this one up by welding so I can turn it back smooth and straight.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

viven44

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

The shaft I have was going to go in the trash pile but I kept it just in case, if you ever run into a situation where your spare isn't usable and need another let me know I will ship it. I still owe you for your trip down to Dallas!

mat in tn

Re: Big Blue's Chuckling Noise In Steering Column

the upper and lower sections of the center shaft are a designed default. they should be tight and are not telescopic in use. it is a crumple zone to reduce impact on the driver in a front-end collision. it works in conjunction with the breakaway aluminum column mount. all movements up or down are caried by the bearings in the upper part of the column. two plastic caged roller bearings held in recesses in the housing by a snap ring. this is also why the lower sector between the gear and column is telescopic. some have installed two borgesons with solid shaft in between defeating the telescopic action without this consideration. it happens a lot in hot rods.

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