7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Sent you an email re my availability.

But, I should also say that the dizzy is curved for whatever spark advance Tim found that my engine needs.  However, your engine has EGR and mine doesn't, and that changes the advance curve requirements since the flame front doesn't travel as rapidly in the diluted mix when exhaust gas is added.  So I'm not sure that it would work well for your engine.

Perhaps those that are more familiar with curves for engines with and without EGR can comment?  I know that Bill is quite familiar with that situation, and there may be others.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

BeagleRock
Now you're going above my head when you're talking about dizzy curves. I'm not a mechanic by no stretch of the imagination. Yes I do some things like power window motors,alternators,heater cores water pumps,and carburetors etc. I'm better at small engines lol. Oh yeah and replaced the rear pinion seal ☺

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Sent: December 29, 2017 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

Sent you an email re my availability.

But, I should also say that the dizzy is curved for whatever spark advance Tim found that my engine needs.  However, your engine has EGR and mine doesn't, and that changes the advance curve requirements since the flame front doesn't travel as rapidly in the diluted mix when exhaust gas is added.  So I'm not sure that it would work well for your engine.

Perhaps those that are more familiar with curves for engines with and without EGR can comment?  I know that Bill is quite familiar with that situation, and there may be others.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's



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NAML
Beaglerock/83f150 351W C6 Transmission 2 wheel drive.
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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

85lebaront2
Administrator
On distributor curves, the mechanical advance is based on the best power under load without detonation, this basic idea goes way back as far as the moveable advance system whether it was a level on the steering column or a centrifugal advance mechanism. The Windsor V8s can take 36-38° total mechanical advance at around 5000 rpm, mechanical advance is 2 stage, a quick initial, up to around 3000 rpm for a street engine advance of 28-32°, the remainder coming in slowly to max rpm.

The vacuum advance came later as an economy measure and it makes up the difference between under load and light load conditions. There are two main styles, a vacuum brake system used by Ford on the flathead V8s and 6s with the front of the cam distributor and used by Mallory on their street distributors for years. The second is a vacuum can that has a diaphragm attached to a rod which moves the breaker plate (except on the old Chevy in-line 6, on those the whole distributor moves) this system has either an adjustment screw in side the can, or on older Fords a removable cap under which was a spring, shims and a hollow stop tube inside the spring. These are pretty straight forward, at X inches of vacuum you get Y degrees of advance.

What happens with the EGR is not that you can get more advance, it dilutes the mixture enough that the vacuum advance does not cause detonation. A specific example, the mid 80s Oldsmobile built 307 ci V8, if the EGR wasn't opening, you would get a light throttle spark knock at roughly 35-40 mph in 4th gear lockup, a bit more throttle and it would vanish when the computer added fuel by decreasing the down time on the metering rods on the E4ME primaries.

Now, to further confuse everyone, for a long time, Ford used Holley distributors, with no mechanical advance, only vacuum, called a Loadamatic distributor  These had a 2 stage set of springs on the breaker plate, one very light one for the venturii signal, the other a heavier one for the throttle port signal. Depending on the year and application many had a spark control valve on the side of the distributor. This blocked the throttle port so that the very weak venturii signal didn't leak, when the throttle signal was there the valve moved in under the higher vacuum to allow it to the distributor diaphragm to receive the full vacuum. Some carburetors simply used a small check ball in the throttle passage. Because this system ran at maximum advance at cruise conditions, Ford found that it was necessary on some applications to use a second diaphragm on the back of the main one connected directly to manifold vacuum to quickly retard the main system under sudden WOT conditions. A quick way to recognize these systems, the diaphragm "can" is very flat on these as there are no springs inside it.

The next piece came with the emission systems, 1966 in California, and 1968 nationwide. One of the problems with many engines was idle emissions, unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide (CO) also oxides of nitrogen. It was found that if the carburetor idle circuits were at the transfer slot that the idle could be set lean enough in the jetting that the engine could run cleaner. In order to do this, the initial timing needed to be reduced. The other solution was air injection. Each of the big three used a different approach, Ford used two systems, IMCO for IMproved COmbustion and Thermactor or air injection. Both systems used a lazier distributor curve and in some applications a lower initial (static) timing. It also was the death knell for the Loadamatic distributor as it's advance would vary with altitude and to some degree barometric pressure differences. The leaner low speed mixtures also would cause the Loadamatic equipped engines to misfire at low speed cruise due to the advance being fully in.

I hope this isn't too confusing, but hopefully it will help understand how the spark advance systems relate to other systems. All have to work together in harmony for best power and economy.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

BeagleRock
Ok 👌  I think I've got it! 😉. Man you should write a book! 

On Dec 29, 2017 2:44 PM, "85lebaront2 [via Bullnose Enthusiasts]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On distributor curves, the mechanical advance is based on the best power under load without detonation, this basic idea goes way back as far as the moveable advance system whether it was a level on the steering column or a centrifugal advance mechanism. The Windsor V8s can take 36-38° total mechanical advance at around 5000 rpm, mechanical advance is 2 stage, a quick initial, up to around 3000 rpm for a street engine advance of 28-32°, the remainder coming in slowly to max rpm.

The vacuum advance came later as an economy measure and it makes up the difference between under load and light load conditions. There are two main styles, a vacuum brake system used by Ford on the flathead V8s and 6s with the front of the cam distributor and used by Mallory on their street distributors for years. The second is a vacuum can that has a diaphragm attached to a rod which moves the breaker plate (except on the old Chevy in-line 6, on those the whole distributor moves) this system has either an adjustment screw in side the can, or on older Fords a removable cap under which was a spring, shims and a hollow stop tube inside the spring. These are pretty straight forward, at X inches of vacuum you get Y degrees of advance.

What happens with the EGR is not that you can get more advance, it dilutes the mixture enough that the vacuum advance does not cause detonation. A specific example, the mid 80s Oldsmobile built 307 ci V8, if the EGR wasn't opening, you would get a light throttle spark knock at roughly 35-40 mph in 4th gear lockup, a bit more throttle and it would vanish when the computer added fuel by decreasing the down time on the metering rods on the E4ME primaries.

Now, to further confuse everyone, for a long time, Ford used Holley distributors, with no mechanical advance, only vacuum, called a Loadamatic distributor  These had a 2 stage set of springs on the breaker plate, one very light one for the venturii signal, the other a heavier one for the throttle port signal. Depending on the year and application many had a spark control valve on the side of the distributor. This blocked the throttle port so that the very weak venturii signal didn't leak, when the throttle signal was there the valve moved in under the higher vacuum to allow it to the distributor diaphragm to receive the full vacuum. Some carburetors simply used a small check ball in the throttle passage. Because this system ran at maximum advance at cruise conditions, Ford found that it was necessary on some applications to use a second diaphragm on the back of the main one connected directly to manifold vacuum to quickly retard the main system under sudden WOT conditions. A quick way to recognize these systems, the diaphragm "can" is very flat on these as there are no springs inside it.

The next piece came with the emission systems, 1966 in California, and 1968 nationwide. One of the problems with many engines was idle emissions, unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide (CO) also oxides of nitrogen. It was found that if the carburetor idle circuits were at the transfer slot that the idle could be set lean enough in the jetting that the engine could run cleaner. In order to do this, the initial timing needed to be reduced. The other solution was air injection. Each of the big three used a different approach, Ford used two systems, IMCO for IMproved COmbustion and Thermactor or air injection. Both systems used a lazier distributor curve and in some applications a lower initial (static) timing. It also was the death knell for the Loadamatic distributor as it's advance would vary with altitude and to some degree barometric pressure differences. The leaner low speed mixtures also would cause the Loadamatic equipped engines to misfire at low speed cruise due to the advance being fully in.

I hope this isn't too confusing, but hopefully it will help understand how the spark advance systems relate to other systems. All have to work together in harmony for best power and economy.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413



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Beaglerock/83f150 351W C6 Transmission 2 wheel drive.
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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

85lebaront2
Administrator
That's what Gary keeps saying. I owned a carburetor and ignition shop in Newport News VA for a number of years and learned a whole lot between manuals, training from Holley etc. The VV (non-feedback) is just another variation of the old British SU (Skinner Union) carburetor. the concept being a consistent vacuum across the jet and mixture control based on how much air is passing through the opening, more air = further opening which pulls the mixture needle further out of the jet. Very simple, an SU has two moving parts, the throttle and the piston with the metering needle attached.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

BeagleRock

Garys right!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Friday, December 29, 2017 85lebaront2 [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's what Gary keeps saying. I owned a carburetor and ignition shop in Newport News VA for a number of years and learned a whole lot between manuals, training from Holley etc. The VV (non-feedback) is just another variation of the old British SU (Skinner Union) carburetor. the concept being a consistent vacuum across the jet and mixture control based on how much air is passing through the opening, more air = further opening which pulls the mixture needle further out of the jet. Very simple, an SU has two moving parts, the throttle and the piston with the metering needle attached.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/7200VV-swap-for-Motorcraft-2150-tp5495p5766.html
To unsubscribe from 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150, click here.
NAML
Beaglerock/83f150 351W C6 Transmission 2 wheel drive.
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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

BeagleRock
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Kinda like the carbs on the Kawasaki dirt bikes of the 70s. Very responsive! The SU that is.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Friday, December 29, 2017 85lebaront2 [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's what Gary keeps saying. I owned a carburetor and ignition shop in Newport News VA for a number of years and learned a whole lot between manuals, training from Holley etc. The VV (non-feedback) is just another variation of the old British SU (Skinner Union) carburetor. the concept being a consistent vacuum across the jet and mixture control based on how much air is passing through the opening, more air = further opening which pulls the mixture needle further out of the jet. Very simple, an SU has two moving parts, the throttle and the piston with the metering needle attached.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/7200VV-swap-for-Motorcraft-2150-tp5495p5766.html
To unsubscribe from 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150, click here.
NAML
Beaglerock/83f150 351W C6 Transmission 2 wheel drive.
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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, like the carbs on most bikes in the 70's.  I was given one of the VV's in the 80's and that was my first thought - like a bike carb.  Unfortunately I no longer have the carb, and have kinda wanted one just for show.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

BeagleRock
I understand... I saw a new in box one on ebay for $495.00 + $79.00 shipping!!!  Lol I think the shipping shocked me more than the price of the carb.

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Sent: December 29, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150

Yes, like the carbs on most bikes in the 70's.  I was given one of the VV's in the 80's and that was my first thought - like a bike carb.  Unfortunately I no longer have the carb, and have kinda wanted one just for show.  
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/7200VV-swap-for-Motorcraft-2150-tp5495p5773.html
To unsubscribe from 7200VV swap for Motorcraft 2150, click here.
NAML
Beaglerock/83f150 351W C6 Transmission 2 wheel drive.
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