2019 Trip Planning - Ouray & The San Juans

i wouldn't think it would make it up alot of those trails, i just think it would be kind of cool to go.  probably something that will never happen anyway.  Have to keep road tires on him as he's our main mode of transportation, or will be.

I know this is 2020 and that 2019 has come and gone.  But Janey and I are headed to CO in the not too distant future with friends, and hope to rent a Jeep for a day out of Ouray.  And since 2 of the 4 of us want easy roads, I'm mapping them out as best I can.

It looks to me like this route should work, but I'm asking for input:

Colorado 550 from Ouray to Ridgeway

Colorado 62 from Ridgeway to Last Dollar Road

Last Dollar Road to Colorado 145

Colorado 145 to Telluride, then back to the Sunshine Camp Road

Sunshine Camp Road to Ophir Pass Road

Ophir Pass Road to Colorado 550

Colorado 550 into Silverton (yes, I know the last mile isn't 550)

The blue and green road north out of Silverton to Corkscrew Gulch

Corkscrew Gulch back to Co 550

I know that many times on that day we'll ask why we rented a Jeep.  But there are some places on that loop that looks like it'll require a Jeep.  And things I've read say the scenery will be spectacular.  However, I'm open to suggestions.

Lesley and I just got back from a 4 day weekend on the North Shore (of Lake Superior, but in this part of the country at least, when you say "the North Shore," specifying the lake is unnecessary).  So I'm a little swamped.  But a quick response for now...

My first glance at your map shows a glaring error.  Poughkeepsie Gulch is the road that goes from Lake Como north to the Engineer Mountain road.  It's shown as yellow, but it's the hardest trail in the area.  Meanwhile, the black and red section that's identified as Poughkeepsie Gulch is actually the Mineral Point trail, and probably deserves to be yellow (certainly not black and red).  The "Bleepin Jeep" videos I linked a couple weeks ago talk about Poughkeepsie Gulch when he was really on Mineral Point trail, so he must have had the same map.  But don't take that yellow trail expecting it to be a cake walk!  (Like I've said before, I'm sure you could go on it and enjoy it, but enjoying it may very well mean turning around at some point.)

However, of the trails you plan to take, I don't know of any that are harder than the color code would imply.  The caveat on that is that I've never been on Last Dollar road, Ophir Pass, or the trail from Silverton up to Corkscrew Gulch.  I have no information that would say they are different than what the map shows, and if they were particularly difficult I'm sure I'd have heard that.  But I just have very little information on them.

I would suggest taking the trail east out of Silverton rather than the one going north that you show.  Animas Forks is a "restored ghost town" that's worth seeing.  And California Gulch, going west from Animas Forks to Corkscrew Gulch, is not a hard Jeep trail by any means.  It has a few tight switchbacks and it's pretty steep in spots.  But it's not very "shelfy" and could easily be done in 2WD with low enough gears (but you'll put it in 4WD low to get the low enough gears).  But the caveat on that suggestion is that what you show will take quite a bit of time, and make for a very full day already.  Adding Animas Forks might just make it too long.

Bob - I hope your trip was fun.  And I understand being swamped, so don't worry about getting back quickly.

But your post sure opened my eyes.  I'd gotten a physical map in yesterday from Amazon called Funtreks Off-Highway Map for Silverton, Ouray, Lake City, Telluride.  And it agrees with what you said about the various road names, ratings, etc.

In fact, it confirms my memory as it shows the Alpine Loop to/from Lake City to be all green and blue.  Years ago we did the Alpine Loop and it was easy.  But the map I included above shows it as having red, orange, and yellow sections.  

Anyway, I like your suggestion about going east out of Silverton.  We've done that, many decades ago, and it was easy.  And Animas Forks was very picturesque.  So I'm liking that idea.

Now, about GPS.  We had a bit of discussion re a GPS app on a phone.  Still thinking about that if anyone has suggestions.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  In fact, it confirms my memory as it shows the Alpine Loop to/from Lake City to be all green and blue.  Years ago we did the Alpine Loop and it was easy.  But the map I included above shows it as having red, orange, and yellow sections.  ....

Other than the big error of misplacing Poughkeepsie Gulch, I think the rest of the map is likely pretty accurate, as long as you consider the ratings to be relative to the trails in that area.  None of the trails (other than Poughkeepsie Gulch) are hard, but some are harder than others.  If you really want just nice scenic dirt roads, stay off the orange and red.  But if you're up for a little shelfy, some tight switchbacks, and occasionally needing to be a little careful about picking a line, the orange and red trails aren't hard.

I will agree that Black Bear deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" (even though it's not a hard trail).  It will kill you if you do something wrong, just like a freeway will.  And just like a freeway, it's pretty easy to see what that "wrong" thing is and not do it.  But also just like a freeway, it's not really a good choice for everyone.

Poughkeepsie Gulch is nowhere near as likely to kill you as Black Bear, but it's probably more likely to break your vehicle if you do something wrong.  So it probably deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" too.

Ok, Bob.  I need your opinion.  Here's a blow-up of what the one map has of Engineer Pass, with the scale being blue=1, green=2, yellow=3, orange=4, and red=5.




But here's what my paper map shows, with green, blue=2, and red=3:



I've re-re-read your Day 4 report where you said "Nothing too difficult, but it didn't take long and there were great views".  So, is the red/5 rating on the first map overstating it?  Or is the Blue/2 understated?

Better yet, is Engineer Pass something we can handle in a Jeep Rubicon with wives that are skittish?

To directly answer your question, I'd say that both maps are likely correct, but with different perspectives.  The one that says it's red is right that it's one of the hardest, scariest roads in the area (more on that below).  But the one that says it's blue and green isn't wrong either.  The blue sections are slightly difficult and scarier than the green sections, which are pretty close to being gravel roads.  If you recall, when we were out there in 2018 we drove some of the east side of Cinnamon Pass and found it so easy that it was kind of boring.  But we also met some people in a side-by-side ATV that had been on it and were freaked out by it.  So I think the map that shows red is catering to people like those in the ATV and trying not to lull them into a false sense of security, while the other is catering more to people who have done some trail riding.


To be more specific, the maps you show there more show the eastern side of Engineer Pass.  I've never been on the eastern side.  I've always gone up the west side and either turned off before I got to the pass, or turned around at the pass.  So I can't speak very well to the eastern side.  But unless you are doing the Alpine Loop through Lake City you won't be on that road anyway.  If you do choose to do the Alpine Loop, my impression (not based on much experience so take it for what little it's worth) is that the eastern sides of Engineer and Cinnamon Passes are easier than the western sides, and while I'm sure the scenery is great, I don't think it's as varied as on the western side.  So I'd suggest that you do something like the loop you laid out above if you only have one day.  You could add the Alpine Loop if you had a second day.


As far as the western side, it kind of has two sections with different personalities.  The lower part is what I called Engineer Mountain Road in my report before.  The upper section I called Engineer Pass.

The picture below is of the top part of Corkscrew Gulch, but it's not entirely unlike the upper section of the west side of Engineer Pass.  Yes it's a shelfy road, with some tight switchbacks.  And in many places it's too narrow for two vehicles, so you need to find places to let others by.  But the mountainside isn't as steep as it is in a lot of places, so it isn't quite as spooky as some of the other shelf roads.  (Engineer Pass is probably on steeper hills than Corkscrew Gulch, at least on average, but this still gives some idea.)  Still, the hills are steep enough that if you were to drive off you'd end up going a long way down before you'd stop.  So it may or may not be fun for novices.


 


If I recall correctly I suggested not doing Engineer Mountain Road on day 1.  Not that it's all that difficult or scary, but other than Black Bear and Poughkeepsie (which are in different categories) it's the most difficult, scariest trail in the area.

But again, it isn't that difficult or scary.

If it sounds like I'm waffling, it's because I can't say what skittish wives will think of it.

Here are the pictures I posted back in 2018 with some current commentary:

The first two show some of the scariest sections of Engineer Mountain Road.  These are pretty shelfy, and definitely too narrow for two vehicles in a lot of places.  But there are a lot of places where you can pass too.  For experienced drivers / passengers this is just Colorado scenery.  But for novices it can be pretty spooky.





The last picture shows one of the most difficult sections of Engineer Mountain Road.  If I recall correctly this was an optional line, with a significantly easier path available.  But I'd say if you think a difficulty level like this might keep it from being fun, then perhaps this road isn't the right choice right now.  That said, a stock Rubicon could do this easily, with the only real risk being clunking something on a rock.  So take it slow and try to either go around the tallest rocks or hit them with your tires (that will lift the whole vehicle rather than putting the tires in the low spots so the hard parts stay closer to the rocks).  Also try to avoid being very sideways on a hill.  It's like waves in a boat, it's much more stable taking them head-on rather that from the side.




In the end, not to try to scare you off of Engineer Pass, but the loop you laid out in purple above will probably be easier and less scary than Engineer Pass and Engineer Mountain Road while not giving up anything in the way of scenery.  And adding the Animas Forks / California Gulch section really wouldn't make it any harder or scarier (just longer).  So I'd suggest staying closer to your original plan if you've only got one day, and maybe bringing Engineer Pass into the mix if you have more time and no one felt too uncomfortable with anything on day 1.

THANK YOU!  That I can understand!  

Given the above, I think I'm back to the purple route as you suggested.  There's only one place on that route that might be a small issue, and that's a short shelf on the Ophir Pass road.  In fact, today I was looking over my notes from our 1993 trip as well as the book I used then - Jeep Trails To Colorado Ghost Towns.  The notes show that we probably took Ophir Pass then, and I showed them to Janey who said "Yes!  That's where Holly and I got out and walked!"

What I didn't show her, but sent to our son, is the snippet below from the book.  And our son agrees, that was the place.  So, the ladies may get out and walk again.  But it isn't a very long stretch at all.  

(edit:  I thought I'd put a link to the recent discussion of Black Bear Road so it doesn't get separated from this thread.)

Today I ran across this video of Poughkeepsie Gulch.  It seems to be a group without a lot of hardcore experience in maybe a stock Wrangler Rubicon 4 door, a Wrangler 2 door with no lockers, and a Toyota FourRunner.  I skipped over sections of the video, but he seems to show pretty much the entire trail other than the bypass and the easy section up by Lake Como.

They go up Poughkeepsie, from Engineer Mountain Road to Hurricane Pass.  If you remember, I suggested you go down it.  I actually prefer going up difficult obstacles (more challenge / fun to get over, but easier to stop before you get in trouble).  But going down Poughkeepsie is the best way to guarantee you'll be able to make it to the part that's most worth seeing.  (While the bypass trail isn't very hard, there is one section that has some VERY tight turns on a VERY narrow section of trail, with rocks (or at least pretty solid dirt mounds) on both sides.  I'm not sure Big Blue would fit through there without hitting the sheetmetal.)

At 7:40 they get to where the bypass turns off the main trail.  As they note, it's well marked with warning signs.

At 10:20 they get to the narrow, rough, steep approach to the staging area.  This is a section that I know Big Blue can do, but I don't know if you'll want to do it.  So I'd suggest you walk it before you commit to it.

At 11:10 they get to the staging area at the bottom of The Wall.  If you pause at 11:10, the winding trail in the center of the shot is likely the easiest route.  But it was closed off when we were there in 2018.  We did take it in 2000.  It's still steep and it's pretty loose dirt.  So not a lot of risk of damage, but it wouldn't seem too unusual to end up digging holes rather than going up (I made it in 2000 with the CJ5 with a locker in the rear and open front)/

At about 11:20 he points out the three main routes up The Wall: left , middle and right.  Left is an exciting challenge for a shorter wheelbase vehicle (I did it in the Jeep in 2000 and think I picked a front tire up pretty high, I couldn't get enough traction to go up it in the Bronco in 2018).  Middle is a hard-core-only option.  It's not THAT difficult or dangerous.  But it's VERY easy to open up the side of your truck on the rock.  I have no intention of ever taking that route.

Then up to about 29:00 they work to get all three vehicle up the right side.

I'll split the right side into three general lines.  There's a hole / crack in the middle.  Everyone (including me when I was out there in 2018) seems to think that straddling that hole is the easiest line up the right side.  It's not.  It's the hardest.  The 4 door fights this line for quite a while, eventually winching.  I didn't make it up that line in 2018, and I saw a lot of others fail as well.  I only saw a couple of VERY capable vehicles make it.

The easiest line is to stay to the right of that hole.  That's the line the Toyota takes.  But in spite of being the easiest, it does have a sharp breakover at the top.  I had no trouble with this on my CJ5 in 2000, but in 2018 my Broncos radius arm mounts hit solidly and there was no way I could make it over.  Big Blue has a long wheelbase hindering, but quite a bit of clearance.  I don't know if he'd make it over the top or not.  (Spoiler alert, the Toyota high-centers and gets winched over the top.)

I can't tell for sure what line the 2 door takes.  The camera is too low to show it well.  It could be the same straddling-the-hole line that the 4 door tried, or it could be the line entirely to the left of the hole.  That line is a lot harder than the right line, but I did see multiple vehicles make it up, including my Bronco.  There's no sharp breakover on the left line, but there is a point where you're staring at the sky which is pretty freaky.  It also would be relatively easy to slide into the hole to the right, which could get... interesting.  I'm pretty sure Big Blue could make it up this, and there's a winch point above if needed.  But I'm not at all sure that you would want to try it.  Although if you just winched it would be a piece of cake, so you could make one sort of half-hearted attempt and decide if you wanted to keep trying or winch.

Still, it's a cool area and worth going to it just to see it, and probably to be able to watch others playing on it.  And maybe you will see something worth trying.

One other suggestion specific to The Wall.  The 4 door Jeep goes to a lot of work to get lined up at the bottom after going around a short steep pitch that's about 1 truck-length below The Wall.  I don't know why he did that.  Most people just drive up the short pitch and have no trouble lining up.

And I also want to speak to winch usage.  They do a couple of things that I would never do with a winch rope.  One is to run a winch rope as a safety strap.  He keeps trying to make it up The Wall with the winch rope hooked up but slack.  If he fell back and pulled the rope taut it would hit the rope and the winch HARD.  The owners manual that came with my Warn winch says in no uncertain terms to only use a winch for static pulls, not dynamic.  That can put a winch and rope over their rating in a hurry.  If you need to run a safety strap, use a snatch strap connected directly to another vehicle.

The other thing is that at times a person is holding the slack winch rope while the vehicle is moving.  Again, I wouldn't be moving the vehicle with a slack rope to begin with.  But if that rope were to pull tight while a person is that close t it, it could be devastating, even if nothing broke.

And yes, they are using synthetic rope which is a lot safer than wire rope.  But contrary to internet lore, when a synthetic rope breaks it does NOT "just drop to the ground."  It slingshots, just like a wire rope.  The safety comes from the fact that it's much less mass slingshotting, so if it hits something it won't go as far through before it stops.  That could well be the difference between an injury that wrecks your day and one that wrecks the remainder of your survivors lives, so it's significant.  But don't take winch safety lightly with a synthetic rope either.

Gary Lewis wrote

Bob - I hope your trip was fun.  And I understand being swamped, so don't worry about getting back quickly....

Not to clutter your thread too much, but I did post some pictures from that trip to the North Shore of Lake Superior in a thread about my motorhome on FTE if you're interested.

Ok, I'm watching and making comments as I watch:

As said, I've been to Animas Forks.  In fact, was close to there 2 weeks ago as we went up that way in my buddy's X7.  Probably could have gone the whole way but he didn't want to.

10:20 Steep Section: Doesn't look too bad with the gear ratio I'll have.  But hard to tell w/o being there - especially on the narrowness.

I'm not sure I want to tackle The Wall.  I'm pretty sure BB could make it with the winch, but the graunches when the Toyota's undercarriage hit the rocks was UGLY.  But I do want to see it, and maybe after a few days of running the trails I'll want to tackle it.

And I agree that their handling of the winch lines wasn't smart.  If I hook the winch up it'll be to pull me over.

I'm going to have to put together a collection of Youtube links to send to my brother so we can talk about what we want to do, and I think this one will make the list.  Thanks!>

Beautiful pics!  Love them!

Gary Lewis wrote

....  10:20 Steep Section: Doesn't look too bad with the gear ratio I'll have.  But hard to tell w/o being there - especially on the narrowness....

I don't know what you'll think after seeing it.  That's why I suggest coming in from the top.  You can get close to all the hard stuff and walk to scout it

Gary Lewis wrote

....  I'm not sure I want to tackle The Wall.  I'm pretty sure BB could make it with the winch, but the graunches when the Toyota's undercarriage hit the rocks was UGLY.  But I do want to see it, and maybe after a few days of running the trails I'll want to tackle it.

I wouldn't suggest winching over the right line like he did.  It's not the worst thing in the world to do, but the issue on the left line (of the right side) is traction, not clearance.  You can winch there without dragging the undercarriage.

However you could try to crawl the right line and stop and back down if you are going to high-center (and then winch up the left line).

But don't forget about your first statement above either: "I'm not sure I want to tackle The Wall."  This is the hardest trail in the Ouray area.  Feel free to pass on it if it doesn't seem like it'll be fun for you.

A problem I see is the rear overhang on Big Blue.  If I didn't drag going up I'd hit the rear bumper backing down.  So I'm not sure I can do the right line.

But I do want to see the place.  And I might try it.  We shall see.


As for passing, if that's the only thing I don't do up there I'll be surprised.  

Gary Lewis wrote

A problem I see is the rear overhang on Big Blue.  If I didn't drag going up I'd hit the rear bumper backing down.  So I'm not sure I can do the right line.

But I do want to see the place.  And I might try it.  We shall see.


As for passing, if that's the only thing I don't do up there I'll be surprised.  

Yeah, rear overhang can be an issue.  Ya know that left side that I said pointed you at the sky which could be a little freaky?  I'm thinking Big Blue won't be doing this:

Nope, BB won't be doing that.  

Here's a really good video of Poughkeepsie Gulch.  It was kind of fun for me because it says it was on August 14, 2018.  I was on that trail less than a month before that, on July 18 2018.

My one "gripe" about this video is that it makes The Wall look a lot easier than it seemed to be when I was there.  Everyone seems to just drive right up the middle line of the right side.  That's what looked like the easiest line, but I saw very few people make it (and I wasn't one of them).  But it does show the approach I was talking about, going straight up the ledge below The Wall rather than trying to drive around it.

Video of The Wall starts around 11:30.  Around 13:30 the Jeep with the camera starts up & finishes around 15:00.  I'd recommend going up either the line they take or to the left of it slightly.

The video goes on as they go out the top of Poughkeepsie, over Hurricane Pass at 23:50 and down California Gulch to Animas Forks.

And kind of a fun thing with Google Maps is that you can put GPS coordinates into the search bar.  If yo paste in N37° 55.619' W107° 37.376' it will put you where the bypass trail meets up with the main trail a little ways above The Wall.  Do the satellite view and you can see the trail from another perspective.

You are right, that's a really good video!  But you are also right, they made The Wall look easy.  I seriously doubt Big Blue would do it that easily.  However, we might try!  

As for Google Maps, I didn't know you could paste lat/lon in.  That's cool!  I'm going to have to explore things along there.  Thanks!

Gary Lewis wrote

Bob - I don't have a handheld GPS other than my phone.  But I think I will have before our hoped-for trip next year.  And in the interim I'll have to do some research.

Having said that, is a hand-held better than an iphone?  ....

OK, I know this is old.  But today I was watching a YouTube video where a guy was using the GPS on his phone to find someone who was stuck in the mountains.  He had GPS coordinates from the other guy's phone to guide him.

Turns out that the GPS coordinates of where the other guy was stuck was about 5 miles from where he really was.  And his own phone/gps lost signal for quite a while so he was hunting blind.

Like I said before, I don't have a cell phone, and I don't know how good or bad they are as a GPS.  But if they rely on having a cell phone signal to work, and can be off by 5 miles if they have a bad signal, that's not what I want in a GPS.  Which of course is a moot point because I have 4 different GPS units and no cell phone.  But it's something to think about.

It IS something to think about.  My brother has a Garmin GPS unit and we'll probably use it for the trip this summer.

But cell phones have their own GPS receivers and my experience last fall with my iPhone X and the AllTrails app was very good.  It had us right on the trails we were taking, meaning Last Dollar and Ophir Pass.  We could see the switchbacks with ease, and when we quit watching it and did our own thing we soon figured out where we'd gone wrong.  

But if I get my son into overlanding I'm going to go with the Garmin inReach that no only provides trail mapping but also has text communication as well as emergency communications.  Yes, there's a monthly fee but you can turn it off except when you are going on a trip.