Starting diagnosis help required

[BigBrother-84]

This is step 2 of the image you posted above.

They don't say "use a paperclip" they just say jump this terminal to battery positive.

Jumping over the relay from the battery cable to the starter cable with a big open end wrench or similar will eliminate the relay as a cause, but it doesn't prove much beyond that.

If you try that and don't get a ferocious spark that tries to weld the wrench I'd say your battery is shot, no matter what the charger tells you.

Ok, thanks!

👍

Probably going to have time today, after family left.

[Gsmblue]

Ok, thanks!

👍

Probably going to have time today, after family left.

I got one of these a while back, useful tool. I think I got it from

Harbor freight

Sunpro Actron CP7853 Remote Starter Switch for 6V and 12V Automotive Starting Systems, Black https://a.co/d/a0iAo4f

[BigBrother-84]

Guys, many thanks for your help!

We presently have a gathering of family, cousins, children & spouses, couple of kids (and lot of dogs 🙄) at home.

🥳🎉

They arrived Saturday and everybody leaves tomorrow (Tuesday), so going to have time for Big Brother.

I plan to:

1- Recheck and tighten every contact (battery, grounds, starter, relay).

2- Verify the voltage at battery, and between battery and relay poles.

3- Unplug the S wire and jump the relay +|- poles, and therefore see if the starter and battery work well.

4- «Light continuity tester» between battery negative pole and S wire, to check if the starting wires/switch work well.

5- If required, change the relay (but all car parts are closed here for couple of days).

I will update you on my progress!

Gentlemen, well, I have to say it was a total fail:

1- Recheck and tighten every contact (battery, grounds, starter, relay). DONE, no problem.

2- Verify the voltage at battery, and between battery and relay poles. DONE, no problem.

3- Unplug the S wire and jump the relay +|- poles, and therefore see if the starter and battery work well. DONE, no problem, the truck started correctly, full electric power.

4- «Light continuity tester» between battery negative pole and S wire, to check if the starting wires/switch work well. DONE, no problem.

5- If required, change the relay.. Well, can't say if it is faulty, this time it worked. But I remember having this kind of trouble last summer, maybe twice. Stop to fuel up at the gaz station, and had one "clonk" while turning the key when leaving. Saying to myself «oh-oh, what's going on», but another key turn and everything starts normally, so forget it, «I probably did not turn the key correctly».

So, I'll order a brand new relay (a Motorcraft one), and hope this intermittent trouble will vanish.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gentlemen, well, I have to say it was a total fail:

1- Recheck and tighten every contact (battery, grounds, starter, relay). DONE, no problem.

2- Verify the voltage at battery, and between battery and relay poles. DONE, no problem.

3- Unplug the S wire and jump the relay +|- poles, and therefore see if the starter and battery work well. DONE, no problem, the truck started correctly, full electric power.

4- «Light continuity tester» between battery negative pole and S wire, to check if the starting wires/switch work well. DONE, no problem.

5- If required, change the relay.. Well, can't say if it is faulty, this time it worked. But I remember having this kind of trouble last summer, maybe twice. Stop to fuel up at the gaz station, and had one "clonk" while turning the key when leaving. Saying to myself «oh-oh, what's going on», but another key turn and everything starts normally, so forget it, «I probably did not turn the key correctly».

So, I'll order a brand new relay (a Motorcraft one), and hope this intermittent trouble will vanish.

Dit you jump the +/S terminals?

That's what is going to tell you if the relay functions.

I wouldn't be too sure of newer 'Genuine Motorcraft' starter relays (Chris cut one open on FTE showing plain steel -rusty- contacts)

Dim bulbs have nothing to do with the fender relay.

You could attach the fusible links directly to your positive battery clamp bolt. There's likely not much drop over the foot or so of cable at the loads going into the cab.

[BigBrother-84]

Dit you jump the +/S terminals?

That's what is going to tell you if the relay functions.

I wouldn't be too sure of newer 'Genuine Motorcraft' starter relays (Chris cut one open on FTE showing plain steel -rusty- contacts)

Dim bulbs have nothing to do with the fender relay.

You could attach the fusible links directly to your positive battery clamp bolt. There's likely not much drop over the foot or so of cable at the loads going into the cab.

Thanks again Jim, going to investigate a little more about the lack of power (yellowing lights) I had. Will check how all wires are attached to this famous relay.

Dit you jump the +/S terminals?

To be frank I went the hard way, jumping the + and - main poles with a big screwdriver. Didn't do the S jumping .

Since I really don't trust this relay (strange starting behaviour this summer), I will change it. And open it after, to expose to sunlight its guts.

About this latter, I am a bit confused about the good model.

Mine is looking as this one (E8TZ-11450-B), the fourth pole isn't required:

I was looking for a 3 poles, thinking it was the good one (E9TZ-11450-B):

But I found at NPD that the good model for 1984 F-350 should be this one (E7HZ-11450-A):

Four poles too, and completely different shape... Any advice about the goal of this fourth pole?

I searched in the Forum Documentation and did not find where to verify this solenoid/starter-relay part number. Any idea?

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thanks again Jim, going to investigate a little more about the lack of power (yellowing lights) I had. Will check how all wires are attached to this famous relay.

Dit you jump the +/S terminals?

To be frank I went the hard way, jumping the + and - main poles with a big screwdriver. Didn't do the S jumping .

Since I really don't trust this relay (strange starting behaviour this summer), I will change it. And open it after, to expose to sunlight its guts.

About this latter, I am a bit confused about the good model.

Mine is looking as this one (E8TZ-11450-B), the fourth pole isn't required:

I was looking for a 3 poles, thinking it was the good one (E9TZ-11450-B):

But I found at NPD that the good model for 1984 F-350 should be this one (E7HZ-11450-A):

Four poles too, and completely different shape... Any advice about the goal of this fourth pole?

I searched in the Forum Documentation and did not find where to verify this solenoid/starter-relay part number. Any idea?

I posted a three stud diode suppressed starter relay the other day.

The vertical can (pole transformer looking) relays were used extensively in the '70's and early '80's but superceded by the time EEC came around '85.

I think of them as Cole-Hersee style relays. They're still popular for winches and electric over hydraulic plows.

The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.

[81-F150-Explorer]

Thanks again Jim, going to investigate a little more about the lack of power (yellowing lights) I had. Will check how all wires are attached to this famous relay.

Dit you jump the +/S terminals?

To be frank I went the hard way, jumping the + and - main poles with a big screwdriver. Didn't do the S jumping .

Since I really don't trust this relay (strange starting behaviour this summer), I will change it. And open it after, to expose to sunlight its guts.

About this latter, I am a bit confused about the good model.

Mine is looking as this one (E8TZ-11450-B), the fourth pole isn't required:

I was looking for a 3 poles, thinking it was the good one (E9TZ-11450-B):

But I found at NPD that the good model for 1984 F-350 should be this one (E7HZ-11450-A):

Four poles too, and completely different shape... Any advice about the goal of this fourth pole?

I searched in the Forum Documentation and did not find where to verify this solenoid/starter-relay part number. Any idea?

EDIT: Posted this before I saw Jim's answer above.

The Fourth Poll or "I" is for the 12v ignition coil resistor bypass on models "without" EEC and/or Duraspark ignition modules.

Mostly used for Points and Condenser type starting systems so you can have full 12V at the coil while starting.

The reason the "I" terminal is not used on the Duraspark and/or EEC systems is they have their own 12V starter bypass circuit and it's redundant.

Now if you modified an old Points/Condenser type system from before 1975 to a Duraspark, or EEC, and used the original wiring, utilizing the "I" post, I could potentially see a problem with voltage spikes from the starter solenoid etc...

There are a ton of these things superseded in the older MPC parts "books".

Part Number: E5TZ-11450-A / Three Post / I believe E9TZ-11450-A / RB - E9TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E4TZ-11450-BA / Four Post / I Believe E8TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E7HZ-11450-A is the larger one turned on it's side etc ...

The E7HZ-11450-A is the one for Jeff's application according to the MPC.

 

[BigBrother-84]

EDIT: Posted this before I saw Jim's answer above.

The Fourth Poll or "I" is for the 12v ignition coil resistor bypass on models "without" EEC and/or Duraspark ignition modules.

Mostly used for Points and Condenser type starting systems so you can have full 12V at the coil while starting.

The reason the "I" terminal is not used on the Duraspark and/or EEC systems is they have their own 12V starter bypass circuit and it's redundant.

Now if you modified an old Points/Condenser type system from before 1975 to a Duraspark, or EEC, and used the original wiring, utilizing the "I" post, I could potentially see a problem with voltage spikes from the starter solenoid etc...

There are a ton of these things superseded in the older MPC parts "books".

Part Number: E5TZ-11450-A / Three Post / I believe E9TZ-11450-A / RB - E9TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E4TZ-11450-BA / Four Post / I Believe E8TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E7HZ-11450-A is the larger one turned on it's side etc ...

The E7HZ-11450-A is the one for Jeff's application according to the MPC.

Thanks a lot guys!

Jim, I apologize, I didn't see that thread, although it is a recent one. Thanks to have pointed at it, I will read carefully!

 

[BigBrother-84]

I posted a three stud diode suppressed starter relay the other day.

The vertical can (pole transformer looking) relays were used extensively in the '70's and early '80's but superceded by the time EEC came around '85.

I think of them as Cole-Hersee style relays. They're still popular for winches and electric over hydraulic plows.

The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.

 

The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.

Ralph, am I correct to think that the "I" post goal you are describing is the same as the starter switch "start bypass" wire discussed here?

https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Do-late-70-s-and-80-s-era-coils-require-ballast-resistor-tp119523p119563.html

 

[81-F150-Explorer]

 

The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.

Ralph, am I correct to think that the "I" post goal you are describing is the same as the starter switch "start bypass" wire discussed here?

https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Do-late-70-s-and-80-s-era-coils-require-ballast-resistor-tp119523p119563.html

Yes exactly.

The older systems (Points/Condenser) used the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid as part of the start bypass circuit.

Newer systems (Duraspark/EEC) used a dedicated start bypass wire directly from the ignition switch, eliminating the starter solenoid connection.

Now some newer vehicles will use the fourth starter solenoid connection to power the electric fuel pumps for starting.