87 460 Carb'ed Towing Build

[ArdWrknTrk]

Part number stamped into the air horn is 80457-2 and looks like a SN of

2919? Looks like it was maybe a replacement from Holley?

So cool that you are reviving your granddad's truck!

It's to be expected that you will see a timing jump when reconnecting the

vacuum line.

That's why you need to reset the curb idle speed on a warm engine.

11"hg doesn't seem too good for a stock cam. I expect the timing chain is

sloppy.

2919 is a date code. The 291st day of ninth year. (Could be 1999, 2009 or

even 2019)

At least it has power valve blowout protection.

You definitely want the genuine Holley 37-119 rebuild kit with the blue

teflon coated gaskets.

I've never had great success with generic sets.

I've been driving mine since (almost) new.

How many miles are on yours?

Quoted from:

https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/87-460-Carb-and-Timing-Questions-tp121123p121141.html

I suspect around anywhere from 80k to 180k miles just because it has the 5 digit odometer.

It was bought new by my grandad, but there is no telling how many times it has turned over. It is the original engine though.

I ask about mileage because I've found around 70-75k the old nylon cam gears start shedding.

Your already retarded cam timing gets worse and worse and the plastic clogs the oil sump pickup.

One way to see just how bad the timing chain slop is is to remove the distributor cap so you can clearly see the rotor and rock the crank back and forth using a 15/16" deep socket and a breaker bar.

Also using your timing light snap the throttle open and closed a few times. Does the timing retard smoothly as the revs drop? Or does it stutter like a loose chain is flailing around inside?

A pooched timing set will have you chasing carburetor problems because the engine wants to spit back and it won't respond to throttle quickly.

Unfortunately Cloyes seems to have discontinued the basic three position street true double roller for 385 series engines.

There are alternatives (like the stock set for '88-on EFI engines)

I understand you wanting to get this truck back to running well before diving in, but you have to consider that a wear item like that plastic gear might be a big part of the problem and can't be ignored.

Pulling the stock front dress down and getting that timing case off can be a big project in itself if it hasn't been touched in 35 years.

There are a few things to watch for and if the coolant hasn't been maintained you're probably looking at a new backing plate, maybe even a timing case, sometimes a damper, you never know until you're in there.

Sorry for being long winded.

BTDT, bought the tee shirt.....

[mat in tn]

I ask about mileage because I've found around 70-75k the old nylon cam gears start shedding.

Your already retarded cam timing gets worse and worse and the plastic clogs the oil sump pickup.

One way to see just how bad the timing chain slop is is to remove the distributor cap so you can clearly see the rotor and rock the crank back and forth using a 15/16" deep socket and a breaker bar.

Also using your timing light snap the throttle open and closed a few times. Does the timing retard smoothly as the revs drop? Or does it stutter like a loose chain is flailing around inside?

A pooched timing set will have you chasing carburetor problems because the engine wants to spit back and it won't respond to throttle quickly.

Unfortunately Cloyes seems to have discontinued the basic three position street true double roller for 385 series engines.

There are alternatives (like the stock set for '88-on EFI engines)

I understand you wanting to get this truck back to running well before diving in, but you have to consider that a wear item like that plastic gear might be a big part of the problem and can't be ignored.

Pulling the stock front dress down and getting that timing case off can be a big project in itself if it hasn't been touched in 35 years.

There are a few things to watch for and if the coolant hasn't been maintained you're probably looking at a new backing plate, maybe even a timing case, sometimes a damper, you never know until you're in there.

Sorry for being long winded.

BTDT, bought the tee shirt.....

I will second that. I'm a big proponent of replacing the timing set well before failure. I consider 150k the limit of the chain. one van I had with a 5.0 got chain at 154k then 310 k then 400k and was still running awesome when I sold it at 408k. the front of the engine was all that was ever taken off of that engine barring plugs and wires, filters etc.

if it has never been done then I call that neglected. not as an insult but only as my method of attacking the job. by this I mean I expect to break bolts! I expect to replace hoses. I expect to replace the water pump and the timing cover. and possibly the harmonic damper.

I know that sounds like a lot, but it could be the difference between loving and driving an heirloom vs having that old heap that is never right.

[85lebaront2]

I ask about mileage because I've found around 70-75k the old nylon cam gears start shedding.

Your already retarded cam timing gets worse and worse and the plastic clogs the oil sump pickup.

One way to see just how bad the timing chain slop is is to remove the distributor cap so you can clearly see the rotor and rock the crank back and forth using a 15/16" deep socket and a breaker bar.

Also using your timing light snap the throttle open and closed a few times. Does the timing retard smoothly as the revs drop? Or does it stutter like a loose chain is flailing around inside?

A pooched timing set will have you chasing carburetor problems because the engine wants to spit back and it won't respond to throttle quickly.

Unfortunately Cloyes seems to have discontinued the basic three position street true double roller for 385 series engines.

There are alternatives (like the stock set for '88-on EFI engines)

I understand you wanting to get this truck back to running well before diving in, but you have to consider that a wear item like that plastic gear might be a big part of the problem and can't be ignored.

Pulling the stock front dress down and getting that timing case off can be a big project in itself if it hasn't been touched in 35 years.

There are a few things to watch for and if the coolant hasn't been maintained you're probably looking at a new backing plate, maybe even a timing case, sometimes a damper, you never know until you're in there.

Sorry for being long winded.

BTDT, bought the tee shirt.....

I second everything Jim said. The 1987 460 was a carryover from 1986 as the EFI system wasn't ready (possibly not emission certified). Be glad because it means no catalytic converter to deal with. The original system on those had enough small vacuum lines to drive you crazy. Most had two air pumps and both external and internal delivery of the air.

Here is an (at the time) unmolested 1986 460:

You can see part of the congestion undrhood.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I second everything Jim said. The 1987 460 was a carryover from 1986 as the EFI system wasn't ready (possibly not emission certified). Be glad because it means no catalytic converter to deal with. The original system on those had enough small vacuum lines to drive you crazy. Most had two air pumps and both external and internal delivery of the air.

Here is an (at the time) unmolested 1986 460:

You can see part of the congestion undrhood.

Yes, that dual A.I.R. pump bracketry is a beast!

And all the brittle little plastic vacuum lines need a lot of care.

I also want to agree with Matt.

It's a good time to replace any old rubber hoses (especially the intake manifold bypass)

That damper rubber could make you tear your hair out if your timing marks slip, so be careful even with the proper puller.

But, as always, diagnose before tearing things apart.

This project would take me the weekend these days, and that's IF I had ALL the parts I need lined up.

Gaskets, coolant, thread sealer, new hose clamps, an oil change is probably in order no matter how careful you are to stuff off the front of the oil pan while scraping the block.

There's a lot of little things that can go smoothly or bad in a hurry.

[ford4wd08]

I ask about mileage because I've found around 70-75k the old nylon cam gears start shedding.

Your already retarded cam timing gets worse and worse and the plastic clogs the oil sump pickup.

One way to see just how bad the timing chain slop is is to remove the distributor cap so you can clearly see the rotor and rock the crank back and forth using a 15/16" deep socket and a breaker bar.

Also using your timing light snap the throttle open and closed a few times. Does the timing retard smoothly as the revs drop? Or does it stutter like a loose chain is flailing around inside?

A pooched timing set will have you chasing carburetor problems because the engine wants to spit back and it won't respond to throttle quickly.

Unfortunately Cloyes seems to have discontinued the basic three position street true double roller for 385 series engines.

There are alternatives (like the stock set for '88-on EFI engines)

I understand you wanting to get this truck back to running well before diving in, but you have to consider that a wear item like that plastic gear might be a big part of the problem and can't be ignored.

Pulling the stock front dress down and getting that timing case off can be a big project in itself if it hasn't been touched in 35 years.

There are a few things to watch for and if the coolant hasn't been maintained you're probably looking at a new backing plate, maybe even a timing case, sometimes a damper, you never know until you're in there.

Sorry for being long winded.

BTDT, bought the tee shirt.....

Thanks for all the feedback. No issue on long winded. I want all the data I can get.

Abused is a proper term for this truck as my grandad flogged his equipment or rode it hard and put it up wet as they say.

I'm debating whether the engine would need to be pulled at some point and actually go through things. That way I can be sure where I stand.

It leaks almost everywhere as it is.

The goal is to have the thing run so I can finish the body work and that it has for now. I just have to pull it in and out of the garage. Since the mean kids busted all the glass out of it, I can't keep it outside.

It did run before I just recently pulled the carb, so I have that going for me. I figured I would just rebuild it as is for now.

I do think it will need a new water pump and the the timing chain makes sense for performance alone.

If the freeze plugs aren't rusted out, I could leave the engine in the truck, if I could replace the oil pan gasket with it still in the truck. I can remove the trans for the rear main seal.

I'm willing to do the work and learn as I go.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thanks for all the feedback. No issue on long winded. I want all the data I can get.

Abused is a proper term for this truck as my grandad flogged his equipment or rode it hard and put it up wet as they say.

I'm debating whether the engine would need to be pulled at some point and actually go through things. That way I can be sure where I stand.

It leaks almost everywhere as it is.

The goal is to have the thing run so I can finish the body work and that it has for now. I just have to pull it in and out of the garage. Since the mean kids busted all the glass out of it, I can't keep it outside.

It did run before I just recently pulled the carb, so I have that going for me. I figured I would just rebuild it as is for now.

I do think it will need a new water pump and the the timing chain makes sense for performance alone.

If the freeze plugs aren't rusted out, I could leave the engine in the truck, if I could replace the oil pan gasket with it still in the truck. I can remove the trans for the rear main seal.

I'm willing to do the work and learn as I go.

I'm going to tell you that doing an oil pan gasket in a 4x4 460 truck is close to impossible. (Oh man the stories! "I'll set it on fire before Id ever consider it again", etc)

The crossmember leaves no room, the block will hit the firewall and you have to remove the oil pump to try and slide the pan out.

Good luck getting the shaft seated and the bolts started through a 1" crack..

As for a 2wd vehicle I would defer to Bill, but I think it's easier to pull the engine.

Of course this means exhausts, and if they are farm abused that might run into serious cost as well.

If you do end up pulling the pan be sure to carefully inspect the oil pickup for shards of nylon.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm going to tell you that doing an oil pan gasket in a 4x4 460 truck is close to impossible. (Oh man the stories! "I'll set it on fire before Id ever consider it again", etc)

The crossmember leaves no room, the block will hit the firewall and you have to remove the oil pump to try and slide the pan out.

Good luck getting the shaft seated and the bolts started through a 1" crack..

As for a 2wd vehicle I would defer to Bill, but I think it's easier to pull the engine.

Of course this means exhausts, and if they are farm abused that might run into serious cost as well.

If you do end up pulling the pan be sure to carefully inspect the oil pickup for shards of nylon.

Amen, brother! I remember the guy that said that about setting his truck on fire before trying to change out the pan gasket in situ.

Bruno2 and I did it on his truck with a 351W and there's no way I'd ever do it again on a Windsor. But I wouldn't even consider it on a 460.

[ford4wd08]

Sounds like it is easiest to pull it.

I actually just welded up a new muffler and y pipe on as some idiots cut off the old muffler as it sat in a field. I believe the manifolds would unbolt from the down pipes, but can cross that bridge later. Guess I could always upgrade if needed if they broke or something.

I'll review my options. Cost isn't the biggest factor, but would like to spread things out over time.

I'll get the carb back on it and work through what I have. I'll check things like you mentioned for the timing chain, that is a job I think I could do and obviously it can be done in the truck.

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds like it is easiest to pull it.

I actually just welded up a new muffler and y pipe on as some idiots cut off the old muffler as it sat in a field. I believe the manifolds would unbolt from the down pipes, but can cross that bridge later. Guess I could always upgrade if needed if they broke or something.

I'll review my options. Cost isn't the biggest factor, but would like to spread things out over time.

I'll get the carb back on it and work through what I have. I'll check things like you mentioned for the timing chain, that is a job I think I could do and obviously it can be done in the truck.

I would do a leak-down test before you pull the engine. That will tell you what shape it is in and whether it is worth it to replace gaskets or just rebuild the engine.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Sounds like it is easiest to pull it.

I actually just welded up a new muffler and y pipe on as some idiots cut off the old muffler as it sat in a field. I believe the manifolds would unbolt from the down pipes, but can cross that bridge later. Guess I could always upgrade if needed if they broke or something.

I'll review my options. Cost isn't the biggest factor, but would like to spread things out over time.

I'll get the carb back on it and work through what I have. I'll check things like you mentioned for the timing chain, that is a job I think I could do and obviously it can be done in the truck.

Yep, if it needs doing, the timing set is involved but it can definitely be done in the truck.

Hopefully there's not too much corrosion and all the bolts come out.

I looked up a decent timing set for another member not long back.

You might be surprised how well the stock cam suits these trucks once the cam is back where it belonged before early '70's emissions regulations.

I'm sorry to hear that vandals smashed your windows. This is the second time this year I've heard that.