Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I'm not sure I understand the conclusions you are drawing from the CAD work. (Get it? Drawing CAD )

Rusty - My regulators are from National Quick Start and are "F795 - Voltage Regulator, 12 Volt, A-Circuit, I-S-A Terminals, 14.6 Vset, 2.5 second LRC, For Ford 3G Series Alternators" and the sister - F794 that is the same but w/o LRC.

And despite the 14.6 volt set point I never see higher than about 14.3 - although I will admit I've not checked at 0F, and given the temp curve I posted previously maybe that's where the 14.6 happens.

Also, I'm not saying heat is a "problem" right now. Just that I think it is what is causing the voltage set point to come down. I've not checked the air temp off the radiator on Big Blue, but it is surely in excess of 200F as the ambient is in the high 90's right now and the discharge air is HOT. And I'm running a 180F 'stat.

And the tip of the fan, where the most of the air is coming from, is almost perfectly lined up with the pulley of the alternator. So the fan is blowing that really hot air directly into the alternator.

However, I think if I put a 220 amp 3G in that the heat may well be a problem. And that's why I'm working on a design to get "cold" air to the alternator. (Next post.)

2.5 second that is interesting, I could never find a time for my GR-818 outside of an Amazon listing that cites this regulator is a 10 second load response control which I take to mean 10 second LRC, and it states it is similar to the 36-6004 except 36-6004 w/o LRC and the 36-6008 w/ LRC 2.5 Second. I really need to devise a way to test and verify that this is a 10 second response cause I am curious if it just delays for 10 seconds if it really is 10 seconds or if it does like I think it does which is slowly ramp the output up over 10 seconds which would be great for me with my single V belt.

I'd be curious to see what you come up with on the duct work. I dont know if I will need to do that, I seem to recall my 1G alternator sits out to the side of the opening of my fan shroud so it shouldnt get any air from the radiator blowing directly on it.

Its also interesting that you have a lot of heat coming off your radiator with a 180* thermostat, I wonder if its because I have a smaller 302 with the HD cooling that keeps the coolant more or less close to or at the set point. I am curious though to see how much more air flow I have with my upgrade from the OE 5 blade flex fan to a almost OE spec 7 blade flex fan. Im hopeful that coupled with my OE HD cooling radiator will keep my little built up 302 cooled.

I didnt know you were planning on upgrading to a 220A 3G alternator. Im trying to keep from talking myself from the 130A 3G down to the 95A 3G due to only being able to run one V belt lol.

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine. I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different. And then there's the registration. Plus the ignition. That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are. But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet. As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well. But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it. And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that. But it is really a ramp and not just a delay. You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat. And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have. So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator. I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want. As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air. I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

[85lebaront2]

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine. I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different. And then there's the registration. Plus the ignition. That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are. But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet. As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well. But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it. And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that. But it is really a ramp and not just a delay. You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat. And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have. So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator. I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want. As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air. I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

Gary, now do you understand why I took those rubber air deflectors and bottom cover from that later F150 and installed them on Darth? The idea is to keep to hot air from behind the radiator from coming back around to the front side. Since there really isn't much area for it to exit back and out with the 460, it curls back underneath and right back through the radiator. Moving even at a low speed helps immensely, but sitting in traffic that isn't going to happen which is why I am trying to block the re circulation of the heated air from the radiator.

A possible thought, but I would want to have a spare set of inner fenders, would be to provide an outlet for the air forward of the engine block on each side. This would put the air going outside of the frame and making it less likely to return through the radiator.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, now do you understand why I took those rubber air deflectors and bottom cover from that later F150 and installed them on Darth? The idea is to keep to hot air from behind the radiator from coming back around to the front side. Since there really isn't much area for it to exit back and out with the 460, it curls back underneath and right back through the radiator. Moving even at a low speed helps immensely, but sitting in traffic that isn't going to happen which is why I am trying to block the re circulation of the heated air from the radiator.

A possible thought, but I would want to have a spare set of inner fenders, would be to provide an outlet for the air forward of the engine block on each side. This would put the air going outside of the frame and making it less likely to return through the radiator.

Bill - That makes sense. I'll have to think about that, but so far I don't have a problem and rarely get into stop and go traffic.

[Rusty_S85]

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine. I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different. And then there's the registration. Plus the ignition. That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are. But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet. As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well. But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it. And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that. But it is really a ramp and not just a delay. You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat. And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have. So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator. I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want. As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air. I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

Thats interesting. From my understanding every time the rpm drops it takes the LRC delay to ramp it back up, so if you do a cold start with EFI that idles up to 1,200 rpm cold idle it would in my case take 10 seconds to ramp up to output and then when the EFI idles down to its full idle set point of 650 rpm it would take another 10 seconds to ramp back up to its output. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the post you linked to where it was mentioned that you let the clutch out some and the engine idled down and so did the voltage output which came back up after 2.5 seconds?

My build might not like a 10 second ramp up especially if my nominal voltage drops below 11.5V running the EFI system and the battery is slightly depleted from cranking. I will have to try it and see and if it seems to pose a issue I will have to get one like you have with just the 2.5 second ramp up time.

Ah, yes the big blocks would always generate way more heat than the small blocks would. We have a guy at work that constantly whines about 200 - 220 degrees on his big block and we keep telling him not to worry about it that big blocks will always run hot. He even started whining over the LS swap we did on his blazer cause it runs at 212 degrees even though that is what all late model engines run at from the factory.

On the radiator I looked at an aluminum radiator as a possible upgrade if my HD 2 core copper radiator doesnt cut cooling my built 302 but I think it should none the less. Youd think they would still offer copper radiators seeing as a 4 core aluminum radiator is at the same price point as a 4 core copper radiator if you can find them.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine. I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different. And then there's the registration. Plus the ignition. That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are. But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet. As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well. But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it. And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that. But it is really a ramp and not just a delay. You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat. And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have. So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator. I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want. As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air. I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

Thats interesting. From my understanding every time the rpm drops it takes the LRC delay to ramp it back up, so if you do a cold start with EFI that idles up to 1,200 rpm cold idle it would in my case take 10 seconds to ramp up to output and then when the EFI idles down to its full idle set point of 650 rpm it would take another 10 seconds to ramp back up to its output. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the post you linked to where it was mentioned that you let the clutch out some and the engine idled down and so did the voltage output which came back up after 2.5 seconds?

My build might not like a 10 second ramp up especially if my nominal voltage drops below 11.5V running the EFI system and the battery is slightly depleted from cranking. I will have to try it and see and if it seems to pose a issue I will have to get one like you have with just the 2.5 second ramp up time.

Ah, yes the big blocks would always generate way more heat than the small blocks would. We have a guy at work that constantly whines about 200 - 220 degrees on his big block and we keep telling him not to worry about it that big blocks will always run hot. He even started whining over the LS swap we did on his blazer cause it runs at 212 degrees even though that is what all late model engines run at from the factory.

On the radiator I looked at an aluminum radiator as a possible upgrade if my HD 2 core copper radiator doesnt cut cooling my built 302 but I think it should none the less. Youd think they would still offer copper radiators seeing as a 4 core aluminum radiator is at the same price point as a 4 core copper radiator if you can find them.

Rusty, the copper itself is way more expensive than aluminum on a pound for pound basis.

Add the fact that a copper rad is at least twice as heavy and you'll see why a company that makes a zillion radiators a year isn't going to use copper.

Besides aluminum is compatible with modern aluminum blocks, heads and coolant.

Copper and aluminum in the same electrolyte makes a battery.

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty, the copper itself is way more expensive than aluminum on a pound for pound basis.

Add the fact that a copper rad is at least twice as heavy and you'll see why a company that makes a zillion radiators a year isn't going to use copper.

Besides aluminum is compatible with modern aluminum blocks, heads and coolant.

Copper and aluminum in the same electrolyte makes a battery.

Correct, youd still think they would at least offer it even if its a build to order. I personally dont like aluminum due to oxidation and I know about the electrolysis from work, the aluminum radiators we get from Enthropy comes with a port near the lower radiator hose for a Zinc anode as well as having a machine screw threaded on the hex head for attachment of a ground strap to ground the radiator to prevent electrolysis. For me I just cant justify $600 for an aluminum radiator for our trucks when a copper one would cost roughly the same. Plus every aluminum radiator I found for our trucks were universal fit that requires drilling holes in the core support to mount it like a GM radiator as they dont have provisions for the OE strap mounts.

With the aluminum that a stock engine has such as the aluminum timing cover you really should be running a zinc anode to protect your cooling system. It is why I had to buy a new timing cover for my 302 build cause the old one was nearly pitted through and through and I didnt trust it on a new engine.

[Gary Lewis]

Rusty, the copper itself is way more expensive than aluminum on a pound for pound basis.

Add the fact that a copper rad is at least twice as heavy and you'll see why a company that makes a zillion radiators a year isn't going to use copper.

Besides aluminum is compatible with modern aluminum blocks, heads and coolant.

Copper and aluminum in the same electrolyte makes a battery.

Correct, youd still think they would at least offer it even if its a build to order. I personally dont like aluminum due to oxidation and I know about the electrolysis from work, the aluminum radiators we get from Enthropy comes with a port near the lower radiator hose for a Zinc anode as well as having a machine screw threaded on the hex head for attachment of a ground strap to ground the radiator to prevent electrolysis. For me I just cant justify $600 for an aluminum radiator for our trucks when a copper one would cost roughly the same. Plus every aluminum radiator I found for our trucks were universal fit that requires drilling holes in the core support to mount it like a GM radiator as they dont have provisions for the OE strap mounts.

With the aluminum that a stock engine has such as the aluminum timing cover you really should be running a zinc anode to protect your cooling system. It is why I had to buy a new timing cover for my 302 build cause the old one was nearly pitted through and through and I didnt trust it on a new engine.

The Champion MC1451 4-row aluminum radiator I have in Big Blue cost $305 and fit without modification of any kind. Unfortunately they are out of stock at the moment, but with a lifetime warranty I'll buy one for Dad's truck when the time comes.

[Rusty_S85]

The Champion MC1451 4-row aluminum radiator I have in Big Blue cost $305 and fit without modification of any kind. Unfortunately they are out of stock at the moment, but with a lifetime warranty I'll buy one for Dad's truck when the time comes.

Nice, most of the radiators I looked at are out of stock as I really want to replace mine instead of trying to flush it out for the new engine. Everything I found that might work is out of stock or has been discontinued.

Not sure how good these are but Radiator Express has a listing for a Cold-Case wide tube 2 core radiator that cools like a 3 and 4 core aluminum radiator and they are stamped aluminum that once painted black will look no different than OE copper. They want $650 for it but on back order currently. Also doesnt cite what hp rating they are good for, just that its all aluminum, 100% tig welded with 16 fins per inch and is a direct fitment for 80-84 Truck and 81 - 84 bronco.

https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/229493/1121296

There is also a listing for a 3 core copper radiator that is in stock for $466 and its the Radiator Express brand and yet again no mention of hp rating that all aftermarket radiators I have seen state.

https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/39285/1121296

If I were to get one of the above I probably would go with the aluminum one just because it has an actual metal drain while the copper uses the cheap easily stripped out plastic drain.

Which ever one I go with would have to be OE spec dimension wise as I am retaining OE mechanical fan so I need the attachment points for the OE fan shroud as I have no desire to cut and fabricate a mount.

[Gary Lewis]

The Champion MC1451 4-row aluminum radiator I have in Big Blue cost $305 and fit without modification of any kind. Unfortunately they are out of stock at the moment, but with a lifetime warranty I'll buy one for Dad's truck when the time comes.

Nice, most of the radiators I looked at are out of stock as I really want to replace mine instead of trying to flush it out for the new engine. Everything I found that might work is out of stock or has been discontinued.

Not sure how good these are but Radiator Express has a listing for a Cold-Case wide tube 2 core radiator that cools like a 3 and 4 core aluminum radiator and they are stamped aluminum that once painted black will look no different than OE copper. They want $650 for it but on back order currently. Also doesnt cite what hp rating they are good for, just that its all aluminum, 100% tig welded with 16 fins per inch and is a direct fitment for 80-84 Truck and 81 - 84 bronco.

https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/229493/1121296

There is also a listing for a 3 core copper radiator that is in stock for $466 and its the Radiator Express brand and yet again no mention of hp rating that all aftermarket radiators I have seen state.

https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/39285/1121296

If I were to get one of the above I probably would go with the aluminum one just because it has an actual metal drain while the copper uses the cheap easily stripped out plastic drain.

Which ever one I go with would have to be OE spec dimension wise as I am retaining OE mechanical fan so I need the attachment points for the OE fan shroud as I have no desire to cut and fabricate a mount.

Last I looked the Champion 3-row aluminum radiator was available, and my 4-row took the factory shroud perfectly so I'm sure the 3-row would also.

[Rusty_S85]

Last I looked the Champion 3-row aluminum radiator was available, and my 4-row took the factory shroud perfectly so I'm sure the 3-row would also.

I saw the 3 row from Champion its CC561B, says it cools up to 700hp but its out of stock as well. Thats the same issue I have getting engine parts for my engine build, everything is either out of stock, on back order, or discontinued because they dont know when they will get it back in stock.