Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

[Blucollar4xford]

Here sits my 1985 F150 XLT Lariat with 89,000 original miles, summer 2014. A fairly solid truck, neglected slightly, but maintained well. The 4x2 makes it nice to cruise in, the less than desirable AOD is capable of decent mileage from the carbureted 302, and the long bed allows for some large cargo to be transported.

Since it the cab was in good shape and the engine still youngish....let’s just change all of that after we pirate the cab for my “poor man’s 1 ton” (see appropriate thread for details).

Exhibit A:

“Off with the old cab”

Exhibit B:

“The crappy ‘donor’ cab from the diesel truck”

Plans include (slightly) moving the body back for better weight distribution to the rear, along with (more drastically) moving the engine and trans back for the same reason, 4x4 swap, full time hubs, gnarly tires, chopping the frame down to accommodate a short bed, suspension tricks on the cheap (for now), and lots & lots of cutting. Things will likely be stripped or relocated and I’m hoping to incorporate cutting brakes in the front to aid in tight turns. I’m flying blind and guessing at a lot of how to do this, but stay tuned for more!

Here’s a shot of 1/2 of a twin I-beam and twin traction beam front axle under the same truck!

Beefing up the Dana 44 TTB with a “center shaft” from a Dana 50, and clearancing the housing for said extra beef.

Full time 4x4 hubs from a ‘78 F150!

Not pictured are the late model aluminum “bullet hole” F150 rims or the P78 Gateway Buckshot mudders intended for this rip roaring pile of parts.

[Gary Lewis]

Wow! This is going to be MAJOR! Maybe I missed it, but is it to be a really short bed? And how will you do the front brakes?

[Blucollar4xford]

Wow! This is going to be MAJOR! Maybe I missed it, but is it to be a really short bed? And how will you do the front brakes?

You missed nothing, sir! The truck is currently a standard cab/8ft bed. I ended up trading the original bed, which looked far worse than pictures show, for a really nice ‘95 short bed.

Thanks again to F834, I plan to copy his frame shortening technique on my F150. The only exception being I’ll have an extra 2” of frame up front since the cab will be sitting just a hair rearward. It’ll look a little funny, but I’m chopping the lower body line out of the front fenders to allow my tires room to travel, and I’ll use some lower trim as a template to “match” the rear wheel wells to the front (I despise the look of a later model bed on a bully). Clear as mud? 😜

The brakes will use a cutting brake “master cylinder” from a rail buggy to split the function of the front brakes if I need it. Otherwise they’ll function normally. It’ll just require some creative routing of brake line from the factory master cylinder (front line) down to this contraption. I hope I’m explaining this well enough. Sorry if I’m not.

[Gary Lewis]

You missed nothing, sir! The truck is currently a standard cab/8ft bed. I ended up trading the original bed, which looked far worse than pictures show, for a really nice ‘95 short bed.

Thanks again to F834, I plan to copy his frame shortening technique on my F150. The only exception being I’ll have an extra 2” of frame up front since the cab will be sitting just a hair rearward. It’ll look a little funny, but I’m chopping the lower body line out of the front fenders to allow my tires room to travel, and I’ll use some lower trim as a template to “match” the rear wheel wells to the front (I despise the look of a later model bed on a bully). Clear as mud? 😜

The brakes will use a cutting brake “master cylinder” from a rail buggy to split the function of the front brakes if I need it. Otherwise they’ll function normally. It’ll just require some creative routing of brake line from the factory master cylinder (front line) down to this contraption. I hope I’m explaining this well enough. Sorry if I’m not.

I got it, I got it, I think I got it! I'm curious how much difference the shift to the rear will make in weight distribution. Did you weigh it before?

On the brakes, will you have a valve or switch that cuts off brake pressure to one or the other front brake? (I don't know how they do it on rail buggies.)

[Blucollar4xford]

I got it, I got it, I think I got it! I'm curious how much difference the shift to the rear will make in weight distribution. Did you weigh it before?

On the brakes, will you have a valve or switch that cuts off brake pressure to one or the other front brake? (I don't know how they do it on rail buggies.)

To be honest, no I haven’t weighed it. I know little in the way of weight distribution/transfer, but I’m told this should help acceleration, and then balance when jumping. Ideally, I’d drive a short bed truck and *then* move the engine rearward to see how differently it performed. But I admit ignorance on the subject. That’s a lot of why I’m only trying 2” on the cab/nose instead of something more drastic.

As for the cutting brakes, here’s what google found for me. And it’s explained much better than I can hope to:

“They work by plumbing your brake lines into each lever's mini-master cylinder before it runs to each wheel brake or axle. Then when you want to lock it up, simply pull the lever and that wheel/slave cylinder locks the binders up. Then hold the lever, make your maneuver, let the lever go, and keep driving.”

Here’s the link to the article I’m paraphrasing:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/wheels-tires/131-0707-cutting-brakes/

Here are pictures!!

[Gary Lewis]

To be honest, no I haven’t weighed it. I know little in the way of weight distribution/transfer, but I’m told this should help acceleration, and then balance when jumping. Ideally, I’d drive a short bed truck and *then* move the engine rearward to see how differently it performed. But I admit ignorance on the subject. That’s a lot of why I’m only trying 2” on the cab/nose instead of something more drastic.

As for the cutting brakes, here’s what google found for me. And it’s explained much better than I can hope to:

“They work by plumbing your brake lines into each lever's mini-master cylinder before it runs to each wheel brake or axle. Then when you want to lock it up, simply pull the lever and that wheel/slave cylinder locks the binders up. Then hold the lever, make your maneuver, let the lever go, and keep driving.”

Here’s the link to the article I’m paraphrasing:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/wheels-tires/131-0707-cutting-brakes/

Here are pictures!!

Wow, that's pretty serious stuff on the brakes. I guess I was expecting a switch that runs a solenoid under the hood, like the line control that was mentioned. A couple of those and you could lock a brake on or bypass it. But those lever-style valves look like they are meant for frequent usage.

So, perhaps I didn't fully understand what you are going to do with the truck? I remember something about "jumps" and "race". But, are to tell use more?

[FuzzFace2]

To be honest, no I haven’t weighed it. I know little in the way of weight distribution/transfer, but I’m told this should help acceleration, and then balance when jumping. Ideally, I’d drive a short bed truck and *then* move the engine rearward to see how differently it performed. But I admit ignorance on the subject. That’s a lot of why I’m only trying 2” on the cab/nose instead of something more drastic.

As for the cutting brakes, here’s what google found for me. And it’s explained much better than I can hope to:

“They work by plumbing your brake lines into each lever's mini-master cylinder before it runs to each wheel brake or axle. Then when you want to lock it up, simply pull the lever and that wheel/slave cylinder locks the binders up. Then hold the lever, make your maneuver, let the lever go, and keep driving.”

Here’s the link to the article I’m paraphrasing:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/wheels-tires/131-0707-cutting-brakes/

Here are pictures!!

As said it will be a big project.

On the steering brakes, no I did not read about it but had a buggy on our off road race team.

On the buggy they go on the rear wheels as the front is so light it would do nothing even with normal steering, so the steering brake works like a bulldozer and pivots at the rear wheels.

Now on a 4x4 I don't know why 1- you would need steering brakes, 2- if they would even work right front or rear.

On a 4x4 if you can you set up the gear ratios so the front is pulling the rear like 4.10 front / 4.11 rear, it will pull the front around the corners.

Most of the time we ran what the 4x4 cam with and never had any issues even in 100 yard sand drags.

That same weekend we may also have a timed race thru the woods and still did not need steering brakes.

Now don't go saying you are not doing sand drags or racing thru the woods.

We had to use the same trucks on Moto-X tracks with 10 other trucks for 10 laps and never needed steering brakes. You drove the track like a road race track setting up the turns, brake before them and gas out. And yes we also had jumps and tight U-turns that normal Moto-X tracks had.

With a locker in the rear you could steer with the gas pedal. Brake before the turn, cut the wheel a little and gas it and the rear comes right around.

I can also tell you your hands / arms will be busy. Between steering wheel and shifting when will you have time to use the steering brake?

How are the rest of the trucks set up in the class you will be running in? Do they use steering brakes?

Is what you are planning even allowed in the class? What you plan may put you in a real high class and you may be out classed for the money invested.

It is always best to start in the lowest class and work up as just to add the needed safety equipment to pass tech is a lot of work.

I know as I have done it not only for off road racing but for road racing/auto cross & drag racing.

I am not putting you down for what you want to do just letting you know what we went thru on our trucks.

BTW we had 4 Jeeps 2-cj5, cj7, commando, 2-Toytoa L/C and a bar frame buggy on the "Nuts Race Team".

Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

As said it will be a big project.

On the steering brakes, no I did not read about it but had a buggy on our off road race team.

On the buggy they go on the rear wheels as the front is so light it would do nothing even with normal steering, so the steering brake works like a bulldozer and pivots at the rear wheels.

Now on a 4x4 I don't know why 1- you would need steering brakes, 2- if they would even work right front or rear.

On a 4x4 if you can you set up the gear ratios so the front is pulling the rear like 4.10 front / 4.11 rear, it will pull the front around the corners.

Most of the time we ran what the 4x4 cam with and never had any issues even in 100 yard sand drags.

That same weekend we may also have a timed race thru the woods and still did not need steering brakes.

Now don't go saying you are not doing sand drags or racing thru the woods.

We had to use the same trucks on Moto-X tracks with 10 other trucks for 10 laps and never needed steering brakes. You drove the track like a road race track setting up the turns, brake before them and gas out. And yes we also had jumps and tight U-turns that normal Moto-X tracks had.

With a locker in the rear you could steer with the gas pedal. Brake before the turn, cut the wheel a little and gas it and the rear comes right around.

I can also tell you your hands / arms will be busy. Between steering wheel and shifting when will you have time to use the steering brake?

How are the rest of the trucks set up in the class you will be running in? Do they use steering brakes?

Is what you are planning even allowed in the class? What you plan may put you in a real high class and you may be out classed for the money invested.

It is always best to start in the lowest class and work up as just to add the needed safety equipment to pass tech is a lot of work.

I know as I have done it not only for off road racing but for road racing/auto cross & drag racing.

I am not putting you down for what you want to do just letting you know what we went thru on our trucks.

BTW we had 4 Jeeps 2-cj5, cj7, commando, 2-Toytoa L/C and a bar frame buggy on the "Nuts Race Team".

Dave ----

Dave - In the link there's the pic shown below. That and discussions about really tight turns, basically like my zero-turn mower, makes me think he's going to be doing some serious climbing instead of racing.

[FuzzFace2]

Dave - In the link there's the pic shown below. That and discussions about really tight turns, basically like my zero-turn mower, makes me think he's going to be doing some serious climbing instead of racing.

That's more bouncing than jumping in my book!

I can see a lot of broken parts in his future!

I wonder how well the TTB will work in that type of racing as most I am sure use a straight front axle front & rear.

I guess that front brake steering may work in that case as I/we never did that type of racing.

If they have classes he needs to see what he can and can not do before he gets into building this truck.

If he has just 1 thing it could put him in a higher class and not be competitive.

That's what happened to me with my auto cross / road race car. It was the grille that put me in the unlimited class (full on race cars with slicks) with a modify (suspension with street tires) stock motor car.

Dave ----

[Blucollar4xford]

As said it will be a big project.

On the steering brakes, no I did not read about it but had a buggy on our off road race team.

On the buggy they go on the rear wheels as the front is so light it would do nothing even with normal steering, so the steering brake works like a bulldozer and pivots at the rear wheels.

Now on a 4x4 I don't know why 1- you would need steering brakes, 2- if they would even work right front or rear.

On a 4x4 if you can you set up the gear ratios so the front is pulling the rear like 4.10 front / 4.11 rear, it will pull the front around the corners.

Most of the time we ran what the 4x4 cam with and never had any issues even in 100 yard sand drags.

That same weekend we may also have a timed race thru the woods and still did not need steering brakes.

Now don't go saying you are not doing sand drags or racing thru the woods.

We had to use the same trucks on Moto-X tracks with 10 other trucks for 10 laps and never needed steering brakes. You drove the track like a road race track setting up the turns, brake before them and gas out. And yes we also had jumps and tight U-turns that normal Moto-X tracks had.

With a locker in the rear you could steer with the gas pedal. Brake before the turn, cut the wheel a little and gas it and the rear comes right around.

I can also tell you your hands / arms will be busy. Between steering wheel and shifting when will you have time to use the steering brake?

How are the rest of the trucks set up in the class you will be running in? Do they use steering brakes?

Is what you are planning even allowed in the class? What you plan may put you in a real high class and you may be out classed for the money invested.

It is always best to start in the lowest class and work up as just to add the needed safety equipment to pass tech is a lot of work.

I know as I have done it not only for off road racing but for road racing/auto cross & drag racing.

I am not putting you down for what you want to do just letting you know what we went thru on our trucks.

BTW we had 4 Jeeps 2-cj5, cj7, commando, 2-Toytoa L/C and a bar frame buggy on the "Nuts Race Team".

Dave ----

FuzzFace, excellent points all around (and I truly appreciate the advice, as you sound pretty seasoned when it comes to racing). Most of what dictates classes around here is suspension work and how much engine you’ve got. It’s sort of a screwed up deal, as you’ll see a beater Toyota Camry and a $100,000 purpose built rig race back to back.

But your talking about moto-x tracks and mentioning autocross isn’t far off the mark. Basically these are done at a lot of county fairs and/or anywhere you’ll see a monster truck race. All the local races around me are done the day after motocross and they just flatten the track slightly so you get 4-6’ of air instead of 15’. But the tracks are very tight, short, and bumpy. Average time for the one at my county fair this year was about a minute and a half.

Classes aside, the theory behind the cutting brakes is when you approach a hair pin corner, you lock up the front wheel closest to the turn, your passenger side wheel continues to pull and the rear pushes you around the corner. It took me forever to figure out that’s how these guys corner so quickly, because they wouldn’t even let up on the throttle and there are a lot of spools and welded rear ends that hit the track.

I wish I could post a video to show you what exactly it is I’m doing. The problem is, it doesn’t go by one name either. Tough truck, rough truck, pro-arena, stadium truck, or street warrior are all things I’ve seen this style of racing called. One thing is for sure; it’s a blast!!