Gas tank interference woes

[85lebaront2]

So I'm not really sure if it's just the odd combination of parts I'm using or what. I kind of suspect that by the time they were putting E4OD's in these trucks, they weren't selling short wheelbase versions, so the later trucks just had the gas tank further back from the drivetrain components.

Well, they definitely sold short wheelbase versions right up until 1996, and I'm pretty sure the gas tanks were the same dimensions and mounted the same all along as well.

I would guess that the short wheelbase 4x4's didn't get the E4OD, or the electric t-case shift? The E4OD only came out in 1989 as the heavy duty replacement for the shorter C6. The standard 4spd auto in an F150 at that time was still the AOD. 1991 was the last year for the speedometer cable, so that issue went away in 1992.

I'm guessing the E4OD is just too long...

The E4OD transmission is 6" longer overall than a C6, but, it is 9" longer front to mount pad than a C6 and that is probably where your interference is coming from. Basically your transfer case is now 9" further back in the frame than it was or would be with a C6.

[FuzzFace2]

Thanks for those tank pictures, that gives me something to compare to.

I measured the tank in my truck, it's around 40 inches. It is not the original from the truck, it looks pretty new. But when looking around online at tanks, I saw some of them measure 58 inches or so, so I think it is a 16 gallon.

If I can remember when I get home from work today I will try and get measurements from both tanks.

As for Gary? saying something about installing a 19 gallon side tank on a SB truck it's not going to happen.

Before I had a bed on my truck I tried to place the larger tank up there and there was no way it could fit.

Thst was another reason I did the rear dual tank on my flare side using the factory parts from the parts truck.

Dave ----

[Pete Whitstone]

The E4OD only came out in 1989 as the heavy duty replacement for the shorter C6. The standard 4spd auto in an F150 at that time was still the AOD. 1991 was the last year for the speedometer cable, so that issue went away in 1992.

I'm guessing the E4OD is just too long...

I got around the tank to motor interference fairly easily, it only took a little bending, and I can chalk that up to a reproduction tank being a little different dimensionally than a stock tank.

So that just leaves the VSS interference. I don't think this was ever a problem on a factory set-up, because (I am told) the speedo cable/VSS combo was a 1986 only thing (or maybe ended in 1986). The E4OD didn't come out til 89, so in 86 the shorter C6 moved the transfer case forward and away from the gas tank. I'm thinking my problem all boils down to using parts from different years that were never intended to go together.

In your 1980 body on a 95 chassis swap, what is your speedometer situation? Cable or VSS or both? If VSS only, it's on the 8.8", right?

[85lebaront2]

The E4OD only came out in 1989 as the heavy duty replacement for the shorter C6. The standard 4spd auto in an F150 at that time was still the AOD. 1991 was the last year for the speedometer cable, so that issue went away in 1992.

I'm guessing the E4OD is just too long...

I got around the tank to motor interference fairly easily, it only took a little bending, and I can chalk that up to a reproduction tank being a little different dimensionally than a stock tank.

So that just leaves the VSS interference. I don't think this was ever a problem on a factory set-up, because (I am told) the speedo cable/VSS combo was a 1986 only thing (or maybe ended in 1986). The E4OD didn't come out til 89, so in 86 the shorter C6 moved the transfer case forward and away from the gas tank. I'm thinking my problem all boils down to using parts from different years that were never intended to go together.

In your 1980 body on a 95 chassis swap, what is your speedometer situation? Cable or VSS or both? If VSS only, it's on the 8.8", right?

The VSS was in the center (roughly) of the cable in 1986 and may have been on the older models as it's primary function was for the speed control. After 1986 it was also used on EFI trucks for the EEC speed input. The rear axle speed sensor was originally for the RWAL system as it was needed to measure the rate of change, as in a sudden drop to 0 indicting a locked rear brake set.

Ford continued the speedometer cable VSS through 1991 and the rear axle sensor was still only for the RWAL system. In 1992 Ford changed to an electronic speedometer that used the RWAL sensor or on 4WD models the ABS system as a source. These have a PSOM (Programmable Speedometer Module) that (a) converts the pulses from the rear axle or ABS system to a speed output for the EEC and (b) does the same for the speedometer and odometer head. The PSOM is located in the speedometer assembly.

I am pretty sure this was probably cost driven as I am sure someone asked "why are there two speed sensing systems?" The other reason may have to do with simplifying the system, no need for an assortment of speedometer drive and driven gears in both right and left hand styles, just two tone rings, one for the 8.8 with 105 teeth and one for the 10.25" with 120 teeth. The only time you may need to tweak these is if you change tire diameter.

[Gary Lewis]

The VSS was in the center (roughly) of the cable in 1986 and may have been on the older models as it's primary function was for the speed control. After 1986 it was also used on EFI trucks for the EEC speed input. The rear axle speed sensor was originally for the RWAL system as it was needed to measure the rate of change, as in a sudden drop to 0 indicting a locked rear brake set.

Ford continued the speedometer cable VSS through 1991 and the rear axle sensor was still only for the RWAL system. In 1992 Ford changed to an electronic speedometer that used the RWAL sensor or on 4WD models the ABS system as a source. These have a PSOM (Programmable Speedometer Module) that (a) converts the pulses from the rear axle or ABS system to a speed output for the EEC and (b) does the same for the speedometer and odometer head. The PSOM is located in the speedometer assembly.

I am pretty sure this was probably cost driven as I am sure someone asked "why are there two speed sensing systems?" The other reason may have to do with simplifying the system, no need for an assortment of speedometer drive and driven gears in both right and left hand styles, just two tone rings, one for the 8.8 with 105 teeth and one for the 10.25" with 120 teeth. The only time you may need to tweak these is if you change tire diameter.

Bill - The changeover was in '86, as shown below which is from our page on Documentation/Driveline/Speed Control. Prior to that it was in the middle of the cable, basically under the brake booster.

Pete - Could you go with the earlier cable & VSS? The cable might miss the fuel tank w/o having the VSS spacing it out several inches. I can confirm that the speed control was happy with the signal from either of them, so it must essentially be the same.

[Pete Whitstone]

The VSS was in the center (roughly) of the cable in 1986 and may have been on the older models as it's primary function was for the speed control. After 1986 it was also used on EFI trucks for the EEC speed input. The rear axle speed sensor was originally for the RWAL system as it was needed to measure the rate of change, as in a sudden drop to 0 indicting a locked rear brake set.

Ford continued the speedometer cable VSS through 1991 and the rear axle sensor was still only for the RWAL system. In 1992 Ford changed to an electronic speedometer that used the RWAL sensor or on 4WD models the ABS system as a source. These have a PSOM (Programmable Speedometer Module) that (a) converts the pulses from the rear axle or ABS system to a speed output for the EEC and (b) does the same for the speedometer and odometer head. The PSOM is located in the speedometer assembly.

I am pretty sure this was probably cost driven as I am sure someone asked "why are there two speed sensing systems?" The other reason may have to do with simplifying the system, no need for an assortment of speedometer drive and driven gears in both right and left hand styles, just two tone rings, one for the 8.8 with 105 teeth and one for the 10.25" with 120 teeth. The only time you may need to tweak these is if you change tire diameter.

Switching to the center-of-the-cable VSS seems like the path forward from here, provided the speedo cable without the VSS can go in the transmission without too much bending around the gas tank.

But there's a lot of confusion there too, in my mind. On the documentation on this site, there is this info:

"The 1980 - 85 speed sensor is part number D4AZ 9E731-B, as shown below, and is Motorcraft DY-145 and is marked D4AF 9E731. Then in 1986 they changed to the sensor that went in the tranny or t-case, which is part number E3AZ 9E731-A and it is Motorcraft DY-382. Then in April of 1989 they introduced a new sensor with part number E9TZ 9E731-A, which replaced the E3 part but still uses the same cable."

So when I add that up with the illustrations, it looks like the 80-85 sensor is by the brake booster in the middle of the speedo cable, and I need a Motorcraft DY-145. My searching so far has not turned up any available parts by that description. Presumably the VSS I have is the 1986-89 one, as it clearly goes in the Trans or TC. The part given for that is the -A suffix.

However, I see this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184597047388?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=184597047388&targetid=1263433204694&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9026833&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1263433204694&abcId=9300678&merchantid=108712546&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqvaNBhDLARIsAH1Pq52OE-iWSzVRH_tgsLLwhQ3QFNIFSmH9OnzrjoXQfs0PdxztCoYQ5SwaAhlnEALw_wcB

This is described as Motorcraft DY-144, and has the part number D4AZ-9E731-A. So according to what is above, this should be the 86-89 part. But it is clearly a middle-of-the-cable part, as it has screw threads on both sides.

I'm pretty sure it's the part I need if I go the mid-cable route. Does anyone know any different?

[Gary Lewis]

Switching to the center-of-the-cable VSS seems like the path forward from here, provided the speedo cable without the VSS can go in the transmission without too much bending around the gas tank.

But there's a lot of confusion there too, in my mind. On the documentation on this site, there is this info:

"The 1980 - 85 speed sensor is part number D4AZ 9E731-B, as shown below, and is Motorcraft DY-145 and is marked D4AF 9E731. Then in 1986 they changed to the sensor that went in the tranny or t-case, which is part number E3AZ 9E731-A and it is Motorcraft DY-382. Then in April of 1989 they introduced a new sensor with part number E9TZ 9E731-A, which replaced the E3 part but still uses the same cable."

So when I add that up with the illustrations, it looks like the 80-85 sensor is by the brake booster in the middle of the speedo cable, and I need a Motorcraft DY-145. My searching so far has not turned up any available parts by that description. Presumably the VSS I have is the 1986-89 one, as it clearly goes in the Trans or TC. The part given for that is the -A suffix.

However, I see this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184597047388?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=184597047388&targetid=1263433204694&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9026833&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1263433204694&abcId=9300678&merchantid=108712546&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqvaNBhDLARIsAH1Pq52OE-iWSzVRH_tgsLLwhQ3QFNIFSmH9OnzrjoXQfs0PdxztCoYQ5SwaAhlnEALw_wcB

This is described as Motorcraft DY-144, and has the part number D4AZ-9E731-A. So according to what is above, this should be the 86-89 part. But it is clearly a middle-of-the-cable part, as it has screw threads on both sides.

I'm pretty sure it's the part I need if I go the mid-cable route. Does anyone know any different?

Pete - Ships/night. Let me go to the shop and pull out the cross reference since part of the problem is that we are mixing part numbers and ID numbers. Remember, the # on a part is not a part #. It is an ID #. And we can see ID# D4AF 9E73 on that part. But we cannot see the rest of it.

Also, I have one that goes under the brake booster which you can have. But you may want that new one, which is the middle-of-the-cable style. At least I can see what # is on mine.

[Pete Whitstone]

Pete - Ships/night. Let me go to the shop and pull out the cross reference since part of the problem is that we are mixing part numbers and ID numbers. Remember, the # on a part is not a part #. It is an ID #. And we can see ID# D4AF 9E73 on that part. But we cannot see the rest of it.

Also, I have one that goes under the brake booster which you can have. But you may want that new one, which is the middle-of-the-cable style. At least I can see what # is on mine.

The Ford engineering vs part number system confuses the heck out of me. I realize that often we refer to the engineering number (or whatever Ford calls it) as the part number. But hey, if everyone is calling it a part number, it is effectively a part number.

If the one you have is a known good unit and you are willing to give it to me, I would gladly pay the shipping and accept it. I don't really know where to find a new one, the one I see on eBay is described as "refurbished". Not sure what that really means, the units don't look too serviceable to me.

Now I have to figure out if I've got the right speedo cable components.

Thanks!

[Gary Lewis]

Pete - Ships/night. Let me go to the shop and pull out the cross reference since part of the problem is that we are mixing part numbers and ID numbers. Remember, the # on a part is not a part #. It is an ID #. And we can see ID# D4AF 9E73 on that part. But we cannot see the rest of it.

Also, I have one that goes under the brake booster which you can have. But you may want that new one, which is the middle-of-the-cable style. At least I can see what # is on mine.

The Ford engineering vs part number system confuses the heck out of me. I realize that often we refer to the engineering number (or whatever Ford calls it) as the part number. But hey, if everyone is calling it a part number, it is effectively a part number.

If the one you have is a known good unit and you are willing to give it to me, I would gladly pay the shipping and accept it. I don't really know where to find a new one, the one I see on eBay is described as "refurbished". Not sure what that really means, the units don't look too serviceable to me.

Now I have to figure out if I've got the right speedo cable components.

Thanks!

I have 3 of those units, all of which have ID/engineering # on them of "D4AF-9E731-" but with no suffix like "B". And that is very unusual.

Unfortunately none of my Master Cross Reference Lists include that ID #, so I cannot cross-ref it to a part number. But, I'd bet that it is D4AZ 9E731-B. And all three of these came off Bullnose trucks.

Anyway, the one on the right is yours. Just send me an email with your address and I'll get it out on Monday. It came off Big Blue so I know it was working.

As for part numbers vs ID/engineering #'s, just because people call the number on the part a part number doesn't make it so. If that were the case we could call black "white" and vice versa.

The Master Parts Catalog has 3000+ pages of part numbers, and they don't show up on any of the parts. But I have three Master Cross Reference Lists, each with over 1200 pages, and they have columns for part numbers and ID #'s.

I agree it is confusing. And it is one for Ford's stupidist "Better Ideas". But the number on a Ford part is not the part number.

[85lebaront2]

Switching to the center-of-the-cable VSS seems like the path forward from here, provided the speedo cable without the VSS can go in the transmission without too much bending around the gas tank.

But there's a lot of confusion there too, in my mind. On the documentation on this site, there is this info:

"The 1980 - 85 speed sensor is part number D4AZ 9E731-B, as shown below, and is Motorcraft DY-145 and is marked D4AF 9E731. Then in 1986 they changed to the sensor that went in the tranny or t-case, which is part number E3AZ 9E731-A and it is Motorcraft DY-382. Then in April of 1989 they introduced a new sensor with part number E9TZ 9E731-A, which replaced the E3 part but still uses the same cable."

So when I add that up with the illustrations, it looks like the 80-85 sensor is by the brake booster in the middle of the speedo cable, and I need a Motorcraft DY-145. My searching so far has not turned up any available parts by that description. Presumably the VSS I have is the 1986-89 one, as it clearly goes in the Trans or TC. The part given for that is the -A suffix.

However, I see this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184597047388?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=184597047388&targetid=1263433204694&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9026833&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1263433204694&abcId=9300678&merchantid=108712546&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqvaNBhDLARIsAH1Pq52OE-iWSzVRH_tgsLLwhQ3QFNIFSmH9OnzrjoXQfs0PdxztCoYQ5SwaAhlnEALw_wcB

This is described as Motorcraft DY-144, and has the part number D4AZ-9E731-A. So according to what is above, this should be the 86-89 part. But it is clearly a middle-of-the-cable part, as it has screw threads on both sides.

I'm pretty sure it's the part I need if I go the mid-cable route. Does anyone know any different?

Let me further confuse the issue, Darth is a 1986 F350 crew cab DRW model built in Aug 1986 in Oakville Ontario, Canada. My VSS for the speed control was in the cable just above the floor to firewall seam. Do not assume that changes like that were carved in stone. On the whole issue, look at a threaded speedometer cable attachment at your transfer case (go back into the 70s maybe) and a right angle 1:1 adapter so the cable can be routed up and over the transfer case.

Based on Gary's post above this one, those have the threaded connectors. I have seen some simple straight dual female end essentially tubes that a short piece of cable or even square key stock could be used to short couple a sensor or angle drive to another similar device.

Don't limit your search to just Ford, GM, Chrysler, independents and aftermarket can provide nice solutions.