It's all in the timing!

[FuzzFace2]

I used the Crane kit in my 351 and it worked really well. If Crane makes one for the 300 c.i. engine, I bet it would work well.

Whisler thanks if what I have dose not work I will look into what Crane may have for the 300.

Dane, thanks I couldn't remember who bought what

Dave ----

[FuzzFace2]

Whisler thanks if what I have dose not work I will look into what Crane may have for the 300.

Dane, thanks I couldn't remember who bought what

Dave ----

I got to give Gary a

I tried the "hook the 2 springs together and pull and see what one moves first" test and found the Mr. Gasket spring was weaker than the factory spring I pulled out and why it pings more now than before.

I tested the other springs and found the blue springs harder to pull than the factory spring and that big heavy spring I could not really pull it apart.

So from weak to strong: Mr. Gasket / Factory / blue / heavy

When I pull the dist. apart I will check the factory heavy spring to the heavy spring I have in hand.

Then decide if I want to swap them.

I think I will swap the 2 slots from the R13 to the R18 as Bill posted and see how it goes.

He posted I should be able to bump timing up to 16* BTDC where it started better than the 10* BTDC it is at now.

I hope later today if I feel better after my eye shot and its not to cold to pop the dist. out and do the changes.

FYI the blue & heavy springs are from MSD

Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

I got to give Gary a

I tried the "hook the 2 springs together and pull and see what one moves first" test and found the Mr. Gasket spring was weaker than the factory spring I pulled out and why it pings more now than before.

I tested the other springs and found the blue springs harder to pull than the factory spring and that big heavy spring I could not really pull it apart.

So from weak to strong: Mr. Gasket / Factory / blue / heavy

When I pull the dist. apart I will check the factory heavy spring to the heavy spring I have in hand.

Then decide if I want to swap them.

I think I will swap the 2 slots from the R13 to the R18 as Bill posted and see how it goes.

He posted I should be able to bump timing up to 16* BTDC where it started better than the 10* BTDC it is at now.

I hope later today if I feel better after my eye shot and its not to cold to pop the dist. out and do the changes.

FYI the blue & heavy springs are from MSD

Dave ----

I'm glad you are figuring out the stiffness of the springs. And I think you are on the right track. But would like to point out two things.

First, it looks to me like the MSD heavy spring has a circular end rather than a slot like the factory's heavy spring. With the slot you are just using the light spring initially, and then both springs. But without the slot you'll be using both springs all the time. And the difference is that you will have less advance early in the RPM range with the MSD spring, regardless of how strong it is.

Second, lets talk about the R13 & R18 slots and advance rates. You said that in the R13 slot and with the "recurve" you had a total of 27 degrees of advance at 2000 RPM, and the initial was at 14 degrees. That seems to say that "R13" means 13 total or crank degrees.

However, the other test showed a total of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM with an initial of 16, so there's something amiss somewhere as you should have had 29 degrees total. One possibility is that you were already into the centrifugal advance at your idle speed of 800 RPM. And that seems to fit because you had the max of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM where the other test had the max at 2000 RPM, so the curve was starting much earlier. In fact, in the test run at 14 degrees you were just starting to get advance at 1000 RPM, but on the 16 degree test you had a consistent 2 degrees of advance at 1000.

I say all of that to say that I think you have way too light of springs in the dizzy. If you want to have initial timing at 16 degrees then I think you need much stronger springs to delay the start point of the centrifugal advance, and I suggest you go with the blue and silver MSD combo. Then I think you can go to the R18 slot to get the total of 34 degrees, but at a much higher RPM, which will prevent pinging.

And once you have a solid, non-pinging, base you can move on to tuning the vacuum advance.

[FuzzFace2]

I'm glad you are figuring out the stiffness of the springs. And I think you are on the right track. But would like to point out two things.

First, it looks to me like the MSD heavy spring has a circular end rather than a slot like the factory's heavy spring. With the slot you are just using the light spring initially, and then both springs. But without the slot you'll be using both springs all the time. And the difference is that you will have less advance early in the RPM range with the MSD spring, regardless of how strong it is.

Second, lets talk about the R13 & R18 slots and advance rates. You said that in the R13 slot and with the "recurve" you had a total of 27 degrees of advance at 2000 RPM, and the initial was at 14 degrees. That seems to say that "R13" means 13 total or crank degrees.

However, the other test showed a total of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM with an initial of 16, so there's something amiss somewhere as you should have had 29 degrees total. One possibility is that you were already into the centrifugal advance at your idle speed of 800 RPM. And that seems to fit because you had the max of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM where the other test had the max at 2000 RPM, so the curve was starting much earlier. In fact, in the test run at 14 degrees you were just starting to get advance at 1000 RPM, but on the 16 degree test you had a consistent 2 degrees of advance at 1000.

I say all of that to say that I think you have way too light of springs in the dizzy. If you want to have initial timing at 16 degrees then I think you need much stronger springs to delay the start point of the centrifugal advance, and I suggest you go with the blue and silver MSD combo. Then I think you can go to the R18 slot to get the total of 34 degrees, but at a much higher RPM, which will prevent pinging.

And once you have a solid, non-pinging, base you can move on to tuning the vacuum advance.

So this heavy spring with the slot it would almost be like a 2 stage advance.

It advance the weak spring up to the point the heavy spring play is taken up then the heavy spring kicks in. Now I / we may not see this 2 step advance if it is smooth enough right?

Now on the different test readings I posted.

The first test was at 16* BTDC, vacuum disconnected the way it was from the factory with who knows how many miles?

The second test was after I took the dist. apart, did a good cleaning & light oil lube before putting it back together with the Mr. G weak spring. The timing was also set to 14* BTDC as the pinging was pretty bad at 16* BTDC.

I think the cleaning & light oil lube made the advance greater even with timing set 2* retard from the first testing but that is just a guess.

In any event I need to get the advance to start later than my first test.

I will go with the blue spring, measure the old & new heavy springs and decide what spring I will use and use the R18 slot in the plate and see what happens.

I also know I need to get the centrifugal advance under control before moving on to the vacuum advance dial in.

Thank you guys for the help.

Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

I'm glad you are figuring out the stiffness of the springs. And I think you are on the right track. But would like to point out two things.

First, it looks to me like the MSD heavy spring has a circular end rather than a slot like the factory's heavy spring. With the slot you are just using the light spring initially, and then both springs. But without the slot you'll be using both springs all the time. And the difference is that you will have less advance early in the RPM range with the MSD spring, regardless of how strong it is.

Second, lets talk about the R13 & R18 slots and advance rates. You said that in the R13 slot and with the "recurve" you had a total of 27 degrees of advance at 2000 RPM, and the initial was at 14 degrees. That seems to say that "R13" means 13 total or crank degrees.

However, the other test showed a total of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM with an initial of 16, so there's something amiss somewhere as you should have had 29 degrees total. One possibility is that you were already into the centrifugal advance at your idle speed of 800 RPM. And that seems to fit because you had the max of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM where the other test had the max at 2000 RPM, so the curve was starting much earlier. In fact, in the test run at 14 degrees you were just starting to get advance at 1000 RPM, but on the 16 degree test you had a consistent 2 degrees of advance at 1000.

I say all of that to say that I think you have way too light of springs in the dizzy. If you want to have initial timing at 16 degrees then I think you need much stronger springs to delay the start point of the centrifugal advance, and I suggest you go with the blue and silver MSD combo. Then I think you can go to the R18 slot to get the total of 34 degrees, but at a much higher RPM, which will prevent pinging.

And once you have a solid, non-pinging, base you can move on to tuning the vacuum advance.

So this heavy spring with the slot it would almost be like a 2 stage advance.

It advance the weak spring up to the point the heavy spring play is taken up then the heavy spring kicks in. Now I / we may not see this 2 step advance if it is smooth enough right?

Now on the different test readings I posted.

The first test was at 16* BTDC, vacuum disconnected the way it was from the factory with who knows how many miles?

The second test was after I took the dist. apart, did a good cleaning & light oil lube before putting it back together with the Mr. G weak spring. The timing was also set to 14* BTDC as the pinging was pretty bad at 16* BTDC.

I think the cleaning & light oil lube made the advance greater even with timing set 2* retard from the first testing but that is just a guess.

In any event I need to get the advance to start later than my first test.

I will go with the blue spring, measure the old & new heavy springs and decide what spring I will use and use the R18 slot in the plate and see what happens.

I also know I need to get the centrifugal advance under control before moving on to the vacuum advance dial in.

Thank you guys for the help.

Dave ----

Yes, I think you have it. Good luck!

And, food for thought: It is better to have a bit less centrifugal advance than too much. Unless you are really trying hard to accelerate, meaning you have very little vacuum, then the vacuum advance can be tuned to take up the slack. But if you have too much centrifugal then you'll have pinging and nothing works right.

[FuzzFace2]

Yes, I think you have it. Good luck!

And, food for thought: It is better to have a bit less centrifugal advance than too much. Unless you are really trying hard to accelerate, meaning you have very little vacuum, then the vacuum advance can be tuned to take up the slack. But if you have too much centrifugal then you'll have pinging and nothing works right.

Based on what the vacuum advance has added in the past testing, it added a LOT!

So yes little less on the centrifugal would be the way to go.

Dave ----

[85lebaront2]

Yes, I think you have it. Good luck!

And, food for thought: It is better to have a bit less centrifugal advance than too much. Unless you are really trying hard to accelerate, meaning you have very little vacuum, then the vacuum advance can be tuned to take up the slack. But if you have too much centrifugal then you'll have pinging and nothing works right.

Based on what the vacuum advance has added in the past testing, it added a LOT!

So yes little less on the centrifugal would be the way to go.

Dave ----

Let me try once again to explain spark advance and how it works and affects the engine.

First, mechanical advance (centrifugal) is geared to what the engine needs for best power. Not enough and you don't get the power, too much and you get detonation. Race engines, industrial and marine engines use only mechanical advance systems. These are for best power and are not concerned with economy. Different engines, react differently to total advance, and an engine that is lugged (heavily loaded at low rpm) can and will destroy itself, usually by burning or grenading a piston. Ford engines are fairly forgiving, but still need a proper curve. Best example I can give on the is the Engine Masters competition. A good friend in Newport News and his son run big block Chevrolet engines. Engine Masters changed the format a few years ago, old program was to run you engine in its best power range, several pulls being averaged, new program, everyone runs from your engine's idle, to max rpm. Chevy 396/454 engines were designed to fit in place of the 348/409 W engines so it is only a little bigger that a small block Chevy, Since the 454 has a longer stroke than a 460, the rods have a lot of angularity to the cylinder walls, the cylinders are siamesed so cooling becomes an issue. The 460 "lugs" quite well, as do the 300 and the Ford 400

On your engine. the stroke is 3.98 inches, cooling is good for an in-line engine, but the longer stroke takes more time for the mixture to burn so it is a fine line between enough advance and detonation. I would temporarily disconnect the vacuum advance, and concentrate on, best power and running with the centrifugal advance only. I do not know if someone has a coolant flow modification on these like the Chrysler Turbocharged fours. Water enters the block near the bottom of #1 cylinder and flows toward the flywheel end, it comes up into the head at several locations and exits through a "water box" between # 3 and #4 cylinders. These engines are prone to heat problems at #4 combustion chamber and are frequently fitted with a bleed off in the end of the head.

Vacuum advance is the system that was added sometime in the 30s or 40s to improve fuel economy. It's purpose is to give the engine all the advance it needs for best economy. It can give some detonation, particularly at light throttle, Engineers found that the EGR flow could and would reduce this. I would get the engine where it runs best on the mechanical advance first, then start experimenting with adding vacuum a little at a time. This should have a beneficial effect on fuel economy.

[grumpin]

Let me try once again to explain spark advance and how it works and affects the engine.

First, mechanical advance (centrifugal) is geared to what the engine needs for best power. Not enough and you don't get the power, too much and you get detonation. Race engines, industrial and marine engines use only mechanical advance systems. These are for best power and are not concerned with economy. Different engines, react differently to total advance, and an engine that is lugged (heavily loaded at low rpm) can and will destroy itself, usually by burning or grenading a piston. Ford engines are fairly forgiving, but still need a proper curve. Best example I can give on the is the Engine Masters competition. A good friend in Newport News and his son run big block Chevrolet engines. Engine Masters changed the format a few years ago, old program was to run you engine in its best power range, several pulls being averaged, new program, everyone runs from your engine's idle, to max rpm. Chevy 396/454 engines were designed to fit in place of the 348/409 W engines so it is only a little bigger that a small block Chevy, Since the 454 has a longer stroke than a 460, the rods have a lot of angularity to the cylinder walls, the cylinders are siamesed so cooling becomes an issue. The 460 "lugs" quite well, as do the 300 and the Ford 400

On your engine. the stroke is 3.98 inches, cooling is good for an in-line engine, but the longer stroke takes more time for the mixture to burn so it is a fine line between enough advance and detonation. I would temporarily disconnect the vacuum advance, and concentrate on, best power and running with the centrifugal advance only. I do not know if someone has a coolant flow modification on these like the Chrysler Turbocharged fours. Water enters the block near the bottom of #1 cylinder and flows toward the flywheel end, it comes up into the head at several locations and exits through a "water box" between # 3 and #4 cylinders. These engines are prone to heat problems at #4 combustion chamber and are frequently fitted with a bleed off in the end of the head.

Vacuum advance is the system that was added sometime in the 30s or 40s to improve fuel economy. It's purpose is to give the engine all the advance it needs for best economy. It can give some detonation, particularly at light throttle, Engineers found that the EGR flow could and would reduce this. I would get the engine where it runs best on the mechanical advance first, then start experimenting with adding vacuum a little at a time. This should have a beneficial effect on fuel economy.

Thanks Bill! And thanks Dave, Gary and all inputting on this. This is very helpful.

 

[FuzzFace2]

Thanks Bill! And thanks Dave, Gary and all inputting on this. This is very helpful.

Well I got back into the dist. and made some changes.

As seen below I pulled the weak Mr. Gasket spring and replaced it with the heavier blue MSD spring.

I also did the "pull test" between the heavy MSD spring and the factory heavy spring.

Believe it or not the factory spring was heavier so I left it installed.

I also moved the centrifugal limit slot from R13 to R18

In putting the dist. back together again the plan was to install the new "right" vacuum advance can.

Well it did not fit the body of the dist. so it will go back to the parts store and if the factory one dose not work out I will look into a Crane Cam one.

Now why I think the vacuum can did not fit is the dist. is not a 1981?

Below is the number off the tag on the dist. can some one tell me anything about it?

I could not do a timing curve test, no help, but I did put the timing light to it and a road test as so far I am liking what I have seen.

The RPM dose come up a lot more before the centrifugal advance kicks in.

I was also able to set the timing to 14* to 15* BTDC and not get any pinging on the road test I did.

I hope to do the curving test this weekend with help from my son.

Dave ----

[FuzzFace2]

Well I got back into the dist. and made some changes.

As seen below I pulled the weak Mr. Gasket spring and replaced it with the heavier blue MSD spring.

I also did the "pull test" between the heavy MSD spring and the factory heavy spring.

Believe it or not the factory spring was heavier so I left it installed.

I also moved the centrifugal limit slot from R13 to R18

In putting the dist. back together again the plan was to install the new "right" vacuum advance can.

Well it did not fit the body of the dist. so it will go back to the parts store and if the factory one dose not work out I will look into a Crane Cam one.

Now why I think the vacuum can did not fit is the dist. is not a 1981?

Below is the number off the tag on the dist. can some one tell me anything about it?

I could not do a timing curve test, no help, but I did put the timing light to it and a road test as so far I am liking what I have seen.

The RPM dose come up a lot more before the centrifugal advance kicks in.

I was also able to set the timing to 14* to 15* BTDC and not get any pinging on the road test I did.

I hope to do the curving test this weekend with help from my son.

Dave ----

Last night in bed reflecting back on the day past I got to thinking about the dist. spring swap and not remembering if I put the flat washer & E clip back on the breaker plate?

So this morning I fired up the shop heater, was 32* in the garage

and checked the dish I had the parts in and sure enough the washer & clip were in it.

So that was the first order to get that put back together as I needed the truck to take the trash to the dump.

I also seen a little coolant on the floor and took up on the lower hose clamp as that looked like were it was coming from. I hope its not the radiator as it is only 2 years old.

I also had a little gas leak when I would fill the rear tank from the fill hose.

It was always hard to see just were when it happened as you would need to lay on the ground and that was not going to happen at the station.

Well I got under there with a good light and took up a little in the 2 clamps that hold the 2 hoses to the pipe used to make the fill hose reach the fill door & tank.

When looking I seen a little hole and remembered there was a screw in the hose that I removed when making this all fit. I was lucky that it was at the pipe and the first clamp was on the wrong side of the hole so I added a 2nd clamp and hope that fixes the leak when filling. Will see at next fill up and that is not far away.

On the trash run I dont think I am getting any pinging. The noise I hear I think is exh. noise at the EFI Y pipe and front pipe. Could also be from the welded muffler as it gives a strange sound over a factory muffler.

I returned the 2nd vacuum advance can as it did not fit and did not try for another so got my money back.

Once I got the centrifugal advance set I will give the factory can a try as it does advance & adjusts I just did not know if it would be in the right range for my use.

Dave ----