Gary's Trip To Ouray

[Gary Lewis]

First, before I forget again, thanks for all of the advice on getting ready as well as where to go. That was a huge help, and my brother and I talked about that very thing. THANKS!

As for doing things with family, that's the best. I'm really looking forward getting my grandkids involved, although I'm not quite sure how that is going to work out since their parents are going to be the squeamish ones. So we will see what they allow. And hopefully we can get the whole family together to do some offroading. We'll just rent some Jeeps or side-by-sides.

As for The Wall being vacant, we were surprised as there were people about elsewhere. But, as I think about it the mix of people was probably different in Sept than in July. We had about 50% side-by-sides, most of which appeared to have been rented, 25% Jeeps, half of which were rented, and then the rest made up of people on bicycles, motorcycles, and other vehicles. So I'm guessing that at least half of the vehicles were rented and those people weren't ready to attempt something like The Wall.

Having said that, we parked next to this bad boy many nights at the hotel, but never saw it on the trails. However, they told us they were going to do Black Bear & Imogene the day we did Ophir & Imogene. So surely they were testing the thing out as they trailered it there.

As for the step and the bypass, I think this is accurate. We didn't go down the bypass, but the switchbacks on the part we did go on were tight and steep, although short. As said, Mike had to engage his front locker at one point. We didn't, although we may have taken a different line.

Considering the running, I'm not a runner. Did it in track in HS, but didn't enjoy it at all. So my hat is off to you in being able to do 3 - 5 miles. And there's no way I'd give up that much time in training. But I'm in awe of those who do.

A few last things about the trip. First, the truck is extremely capable. It will go any place I want to go. However, we did hit the diff's a few times, as previously shown, so it wouldn't hurt to have another inch of ground clearance by going to 35" tires.

However I fear that doing so would make 2nd gear too tall to use easily from a stop. I already have to rev the engine a bit and slip the clutch, so I am afraid the taller tires would make 2nd gear too tall. Had I known this would be an issue I'd have re-geared the rear from 3.55 to 4.10 instead of re-gearing the front from 4.10 to 3.55.

And, speaking of tires, the rocks took nibbles off the outside edges of the tread, as shown below. Mike said he noticed it as we aired up on the 3rd day, and his tires didn't have any nibbles off them in spite of us having gone the same places. But his tires were brand new when he left on the trip and Big Blue's tires were put on 10 years ago in 2012. So I'm guessing that the rubber has hardened and that's the reason the edges were nibbled off.

[Nothing Special]

A few last things about the trip. First, the truck is extremely capable. It will go any place I want to go. However, we did hit the diff's a few times, as previously shown, so it wouldn't hurt to have another inch of ground clearance by going to 35" tires.

However I fear that doing so would make 2nd gear too tall to use easily from a stop. I already have to rev the engine a bit and slip the clutch, so I am afraid the taller tires would make 2nd gear too tall. Had I known this would be an issue I'd have re-geared the rear from 3.55 to 4.10 instead of re-gearing the front from 4.10 to 3.55.

And, speaking of tires, the rocks took nibbles off the outside edges of the tread, as shown below. Mike said he noticed it as we aired up on the 3rd day, and his tires didn't have any nibbles off them in spite of us having gone the same places. But his tires were brand new when he left on the trip and Big Blue's tires were put on 10 years ago in 2012. So I'm guessing that the rubber has hardened and that's the reason the edges were nibbled off.

You can never have too much ground clearance in the rocks. However you can be too top heavy, or too high to get into easily enough. I'm running 33s as well, but with smaller diffs (Ford 9" and Dana 44 rather than Sterling 10.25" and Dana 60), so I likely have a little more clearance under my diffs. But you just have to decide what compromise you want to strike. Fortunately, with more experience it's possible to hit your diffs less (by knowing where they are and what they'll clear, and by hitting the biggest rocks with the tires to lift the diffs up over the other rocks). And fortunately diffs are awfully tough! (I still hit mine a fair amount.)

The tires on my Bronco (BFG A/T KO) are close to the same age as yours, and they're pretty chunked out too, but they've been chunked out for a long time, so it's not just age. There might be some tires that are less susceptible to it than others, but to a large extent it's just something you need to expect in rocks. One downside is that it can throw off the tire balance. I'm planning on putting tire balance beads in my Bronco's off-road tires (I plan to get smaller tires for daily driving that I won't beat up on). We'll see if that's better or worse. But I know I have quite a bit of vibration with my current tires, and they were smooth when they were new.

[Gary Lewis]

A few last things about the trip. First, the truck is extremely capable. It will go any place I want to go. However, we did hit the diff's a few times, as previously shown, so it wouldn't hurt to have another inch of ground clearance by going to 35" tires.

However I fear that doing so would make 2nd gear too tall to use easily from a stop. I already have to rev the engine a bit and slip the clutch, so I am afraid the taller tires would make 2nd gear too tall. Had I known this would be an issue I'd have re-geared the rear from 3.55 to 4.10 instead of re-gearing the front from 4.10 to 3.55.

And, speaking of tires, the rocks took nibbles off the outside edges of the tread, as shown below. Mike said he noticed it as we aired up on the 3rd day, and his tires didn't have any nibbles off them in spite of us having gone the same places. But his tires were brand new when he left on the trip and Big Blue's tires were put on 10 years ago in 2012. So I'm guessing that the rubber has hardened and that's the reason the edges were nibbled off.

You can never have too much ground clearance in the rocks. However you can be too top heavy, or too high to get into easily enough. I'm running 33s as well, but with smaller diffs (Ford 9" and Dana 44 rather than Sterling 10.25" and Dana 60), so I likely have a little more clearance under my diffs. But you just have to decide what compromise you want to strike. Fortunately, with more experience it's possible to hit your diffs less (by knowing where they are and what they'll clear, and by hitting the biggest rocks with the tires to lift the diffs up over the other rocks). And fortunately diffs are awfully tough! (I still hit mine a fair amount.)

The tires on my Bronco (BFG A/T KO) are close to the same age as yours, and they're pretty chunked out too, but they've been chunked out for a long time, so it's not just age. There might be some tires that are less susceptible to it than others, but to a large extent it's just something you need to expect in rocks. One downside is that it can throw off the tire balance. I'm planning on putting tire balance beads in my Bronco's off-road tires (I plan to get smaller tires for daily driving that I won't beat up on). We'll see if that's better or worse. But I know I have quite a bit of vibration with my current tires, and they were smooth when they were new.

I think for what I'm doing the 33's will work out pretty well, and we'll just have to learn to put the tires on the rocks.

As for the chunking, I checked the tires over and they are pretty evenly chunked. Same inside and outside, same right side to left side, front/rear. So the early theory we had where the right side tires ran close to the rock walls is wrong. Must have been the shale or loose rock.

These tires were made in May of 2012, so are relatively old - as tires go. Wondered what I'd replace them with so called Tire Rack and talked to Barney. He seemed to think I have the right tire for what I do, which is 90% on-road and 10% off. Cooper's Evolution M/T has Trail Grip Sidewalls meant to prevent the chunking, but it will be "a bit" louder. And Cooper's STT Pro's will be louder as well.

So, when I have to replace them I'll probably just put another set of Discoverer S/T Maxx tires on. We were impressed with the traction as well as the fact that they stayed on the bead. When we had the winch on the step bar we pulled it too much initially and had the tire rolled on the wheel a whole bunch, but it stayed.

In fact, we bent the step bar's bracket with that pull, as you can see on the left, below. I can bend it back, but as shown on the right I'm thinking of including a piece of angle that will be held by the bolt you can see that goes into the step bar, and then retained by a long bolt down through the top. There's already a bolt up there, but by running it through the bracket the step bar will be much more solid.

[Nothing Special]

.... We were impressed with the traction as well as the fact that they stayed on the bead. When we had the winch on the step bar we pulled it too much initially and had the tire rolled on the wheel a whole bunch, but it stayed....

Was it rolled this much?

This is a zoomed in view of this picture:

This was somewhere between 12 - 15 psi in my (pretty new at the time) current tires: 33/10.50-15C BFG AT KO on (I think) 7" wide rims. I had no ide how much I had rolled that tire until I saw the picture. (And don't do as my son and I are doing, holding onto the roll cage when we were afraid we were going over )

[swampedout]

I think for what I'm doing the 33's will work out pretty well, and we'll just have to learn to put the tires on the rocks.

As for the chunking, I checked the tires over and they are pretty evenly chunked. Same inside and outside, same right side to left side, front/rear. So the early theory we had where the right side tires ran close to the rock walls is wrong. Must have been the shale or loose rock.

These tires were made in May of 2012, so are relatively old - as tires go. Wondered what I'd replace them with so called Tire Rack and talked to Barney. He seemed to think I have the right tire for what I do, which is 90% on-road and 10% off. Cooper's Evolution M/T has Trail Grip Sidewalls meant to prevent the chunking, but it will be "a bit" louder. And Cooper's STT Pro's will be louder as well.

So, when I have to replace them I'll probably just put another set of Discoverer S/T Maxx tires on. We were impressed with the traction as well as the fact that they stayed on the bead. When we had the winch on the step bar we pulled it too much initially and had the tire rolled on the wheel a whole bunch, but it stayed.

In fact, we bent the step bar's bracket with that pull, as you can see on the left, below. I can bend it back, but as shown on the right I'm thinking of including a piece of angle that will be held by the bolt you can see that goes into the step bar, and then retained by a long bolt down through the top. There's already a bolt up there, but by running it through the bracket the step bar will be much more solid.

Looks like a great trip, Gary. I havent done any trails up there but I commend you for taking such a fine vehicle up there and bringing it back home with barely a scratch on it.

I think your truck could do 35s without being too top heavy. And it looks like theyd fit in the fender. But if the only damage was skidding the diffs, it might make more sense to plate those before stepping up in tire size.

I like the idea of a forward facing camera. Even in my smaller trucks, when you are coming up a hill, you have almost no idea whats on the downhill side. It can be a little nerve racking on unfamiliar roads. The old school workaround for rockcrawling is to make half doors so you can lean out the truck and see what your about to hit. Not that Im recommending you desecrate Big Blue with non-factory doors. One of my favorite trail rigs has a 360 degree camera system. Ill try to dig up the links for that build.

And I think Ive mentioned I have those same Coopers and mine are chewed up on the edges from rocks as well. But theyve had a hard long life and are still standing up well.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Looks like a great trip, Gary. I havent done any trails up there but I commend you for taking such a fine vehicle up there and bringing it back home with barely a scratch on it.

I think your truck could do 35s without being too top heavy. And it looks like theyd fit in the fender. But if the only damage was skidding the diffs, it might make more sense to plate those before stepping up in tire size.

I like the idea of a forward facing camera. Even in my smaller trucks, when you are coming up a hill, you have almost no idea whats on the downhill side. It can be a little nerve racking on unfamiliar roads. The old school workaround for rockcrawling is to make half doors so you can lean out the truck and see what your about to hit. Not that Im recommending you desecrate Big Blue with non-factory doors. One of my favorite trail rigs has a 360 degree camera system. Ill try to dig up the links for that build.

And I think Ive mentioned I have those same Coopers and mine are chewed up on the edges from rocks as well. But theyve had a hard long life and are still standing up well.

Gary, have you considered that Big Blue is a LOT heavier and a lot torqueyr (sp?) than a little 4Runner???

High center of gravity may be a small consideration, but going to 35's would only put it one inch higher by whatever your overall track width is.

Even if your tire rolled like Bob's, it wouldn't amount to a degree or two.

More fun in the shop!

You can mod the nerf step while you're making the back gate and bumper.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, have you considered that Big Blue is a LOT heavier and a lot torqueyr (sp?) than a little 4Runner???

High center of gravity may be a small consideration, but going to 35's would only put it one inch higher by whatever your overall track width is.

Even if your tire rolled like Bob's, it wouldn't amount to a degree or two.

More fun in the shop!

You can mod the nerf step while you're making the back gate and bumper.

Bob - I wish I'd taken a pic of the tire, but it was easily rolled as far as yours, and probably farther. We had too much side pull on and the tire didn't want to come. Basically, as soon as I saw that tire I hit the switch on my winch and rolled it forward.

Sam - Big Blue is a fine vehicle, but he was built to do that. He has scrapes and dents, but he is solid. My brother didn't miss a day singing Big Blue's praises. And last night when I sent his son a link to this thread he said "He (his father) had nothing but good things to say about the truck and the trip." That's high praise to me.

But I'd forgotten that you are running the same Coopers. Good to hear that despite the edges getting chewed up they are still working well. We had absolutely no complaints with the tires, and the traction was awesome. Made me wonder why I have the OX locker in front.

On the camera, I'm looking at some that use replace the rear view mirror, but have yet to find one that has a second input that I can use for the front camera. But if you have a better idea I'd like to see it.

As for the diff's, I was wondering about adding skid plates. Something with a bit of angle in front to keep from hitting straight on. I wonder what is available for a D60 and a Sterling?

Jim - Yes, I have considered that BB is a lot heavier, and torquier than a 4Runner. We had the two vehicles side by side several times while airing up, using BB's air system instead of Mike's compressor with alligator clips, and even the tires are much bigger than Mike's. In fact, he said so himself. And Rick was really impressed with the torque - we went up Black Bear Pass in 3rd gear! While I know we were down on power from sea level, it pulled like a tractor. And of course, that didn't help the tires as we used that power. In fact, Rick said it corners better with a bit of power on.

And yes, we'd only gain 1" with 35's, and given the reduction in effective gear ratio I really don't want to go there. I think for the offroading I do I can learn to protect the diff's.

And yes, there will be more fun in the shop. I can easily mod the step bar brackets to make them much more secure.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I wish I'd taken a pic of the tire, but it was easily rolled as far as yours, and probably farther. We had too much side pull on and the tire didn't want to come. Basically, as soon as I saw that tire I hit the switch on my winch and rolled it forward.

Sam - Big Blue is a fine vehicle, but he was built to do that. He has scrapes and dents, but he is solid. My brother didn't miss a day singing Big Blue's praises. And last night when I sent his son a link to this thread he said "He (his father) had nothing but good things to say about the truck and the trip." That's high praise to me.

But I'd forgotten that you are running the same Coopers. Good to hear that despite the edges getting chewed up they are still working well. We had absolutely no complaints with the tires, and the traction was awesome. Made me wonder why I have the OX locker in front.

On the camera, I'm looking at some that use replace the rear view mirror, but have yet to find one that has a second input that I can use for the front camera. But if you have a better idea I'd like to see it.

As for the diff's, I was wondering about adding skid plates. Something with a bit of angle in front to keep from hitting straight on. I wonder what is available for a D60 and a Sterling?

Jim - Yes, I have considered that BB is a lot heavier, and torquier than a 4Runner. We had the two vehicles side by side several times while airing up, using BB's air system instead of Mike's compressor with alligator clips, and even the tires are much bigger than Mike's. In fact, he said so himself. And Rick was really impressed with the torque - we went up Black Bear Pass in 3rd gear! While I know we were down on power from sea level, it pulled like a tractor. And of course, that didn't help the tires as we used that power. In fact, Rick said it corners better with a bit of power on.

And yes, we'd only gain 1" with 35's, and given the reduction in effective gear ratio I really don't want to go there. I think for the offroading I do I can learn to protect the diff's.

And yes, there will be more fun in the shop. I can easily mod the step bar brackets to make them much more secure.

FYI, I'll still be discussing the trip in this thread, but I'm taking discussions of repair or progress on Big Blue to Big Blue's Transformation thread, where I just posted about the coolant leak. I think I found it.

And, speaking of the trip, I talked to my brother this morning. Among other things, we are in complete agreement that EFI is the way to go for Big Blue. There are several reasons for that, inc:

• Stability: There were several times when the idle was low enough it was hard to keep the engine running, and it still did it after blowing out the carb. And an unstable idle is no fun when you are trying to ease out on the clutch and make a many-point turn in a tight spot.

• Power Steering: The Saginaw pump works wonderfully - when it is spinning at a reasonable speed. But at low idle speeds and with 15 psi in the tires there were many times that it was a bear to turn the wheel - maybe partially because we were on the brakes at the same time and using the hydroboost. So having an idle speed that is the same each time would be a big boon.

• No Dieseling: Big Blue has a propensity to continue running when you turn the key off if he's running rich and has a high idle. So the unstable idle can be an issue as you want the idle high enough, but not too high. But hopefully EFI will not only solve the idle problem, it should kill the engine when you turn the key off as it'll quit injecting fuel.

• MPG: We got the trail MPG to maybe ~4 but we were still running quite rich and know it can be better, which EFI will give due to adjusting for altitude, temp, etc. And the highway MPG might go up a bit as well 'cause we were also running rich there. And at 200+ gallons at ~$4/gallon we could save a chunk of change with just a little change in MPG. (Note that this is more an issue with a truck like Big Blue which is driven to/on/from the trails as opposed to one that might be towed or trailered.)

[Gary Lewis]

FYI, I'll still be discussing the trip in this thread, but I'm taking discussions of repair or progress on Big Blue to Big Blue's Transformation thread, where I just posted about the coolant leak. I think I found it.And, speaking of the trip, I talked to my brother this morning. Among other things, we are in complete agreement that EFI is the way to go for Big Blue. There are several reasons for that, inc:

• Stability: There were several times when the idle was low enough it was hard to keep the engine running, and it still did it after blowing out the carb. And an unstable idle is no fun when you are trying to ease out on the clutch and make a many-point turn in a tight spot.

• Power Steering: The Saginaw pump works wonderfully - when it is spinning at a reasonable speed. But at low idle speeds and with 15 psi in the tires there were many times that it was a bear to turn the wheel - maybe partially because we were on the brakes at the same time and using the hydroboost. So having an idle speed that is the same each time would be a big boon.

• No Dieseling: Big Blue has a propensity to continue running when you turn the key off if he's running rich and has a high idle. So the unstable idle can be an issue as you want the idle high enough, but not too high. But hopefully EFI will not only solve the idle problem, it should kill the engine when you turn the key off as it'll quit injecting fuel.

• MPG: We got the trail MPG to maybe ~4 but we were still running quite rich and know it can be better, which EFI will give due to adjusting for altitude, temp, etc. And the highway MPG might go up a bit as well 'cause we were also running rich there. And at 200+ gallons at ~$4/gallon we could save a chunk of change with just a little change in MPG. (Note that this is more an issue with a truck like Big Blue which is driven to/on/from the trails as opposed to one that might be towed or trailered.)

Just to round out this report, here's a video from a guy we met on top of Black Bear. In the video he catches our new-found friend Mike in his 4Runner @ 2:56, and catches us in Big Blue at 3:28. But then we, and BB, are shown while at the top and in the drone footage several times.

 

So this lets us see the tight turn with the rock on the first switchback where Mike said "You won't make it." But, there's another LWB truck or two on the trail, so presumably they did.

 

Anyway, enjoy!

 

[ctubutis]

Just to round out this report, here's a video from a guy we met on top of Black Bear. In the video he catches our new-found friend Mike in his 4Runner @ 2:56, and catches us in Big Blue at 3:28. But then we, and BB, are shown while at the top and in the drone footage several times.

 

So this lets us see the tight turn with the rock on the first switchback where Mike said "You won't make it." But, there's another LWB truck or two on the trail, so presumably they did.

 

Anyway, enjoy!

 

I'll take the highway to get there.