Rusty_S85 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Oh...I was looking at the Earl's fittings and vapor guard hose...I didn't know you could buy fittings to do it with the nylon hose...hmmmm...very interesting, thanks Gary. I'm off to go search for Dorman fittings I guess...haha. Yep you can get them in Dorman and use the nylon hose. I personally am looking at rubber and stainless steel hardline for my build using rubber between the fuel tank and the fuel filter/regulator and a short run between the hardline on the frame and the hardline on the engine. The Vapor Guard hose is quite good as well but you will need some fuel injection hose clamps to clamp them on and you need the earls vapor guard hose ends to not tear the inner sheath that creates the vapor barrier. If you decide to do hardline for most of the run on the frame, Inline Tube sells a long wheel base 3/8" stainless steel prebent hardline or a OE steel prebent hardline for under $100. This is what I will be doing and just simply cut the end off infront of the tank rent a quick disconnect flare tool to flare it for the 3/8" quick disconnect outlet on the filter/regulator assembly then cut the other end under the hood and flare it in -6AN to make my -6AN male threaded hose end connection between hardlines at block and frame. The cost comes out about the same either way between all rubber line or hardline but with the hardline I dont have to worry about the rubber hose blowing out some where with age. Fewer amount of rubber hose means I can actually carry a short piece of hose and a screw driver and make a replacement on the side of the road if need be. The nylon hose would probably be the cheapest but I used it at work and I dont like it but I am sure it would last just as long as a metal hardline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 The OE system you can run and Holley makes a Terminator wiring harness/ECM to hook up to the OE EFI system making it more like the sniper/terminator when it comes to tuning and data logging. If I had a OE EFI system I would go the Terminator ECM/harness route. You can now data log and make changes via a hand hell or through a laptop. I've been thinking about this EFI more and more, and now I'm curious about the Multiport kits. Seems like the only real choices are Edelbrock, or a Holley ECU kit with OE stuff... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-359300/make/ford How much better is multiport going to be over a throttle body EFI kit? Hard question to answer, I know...but it seems like it would be far superior. Maybe not in my application, but obviously there's no better method of fuel distribution... If I did go with OE stuff, I'd have to source a bunch of parts...but what all would I need? Upper and lower intake, obviously. Injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, etc. Would there be any benefit in the end over the Edelbrock multiport EFI kit? I guess the main benefit would be that it would have MAF (assuming I used the EFI parts from a Mustang?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 The OE system you can run and Holley makes a Terminator wiring harness/ECM to hook up to the OE EFI system making it more like the sniper/terminator when it comes to tuning and data logging. If I had a OE EFI system I would go the Terminator ECM/harness route. You can now data log and make changes via a hand hell or through a laptop. I've been thinking about this EFI more and more, and now I'm curious about the Multiport kits. Seems like the only real choices are Edelbrock, or a Holley ECU kit with OE stuff... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-359300/make/ford How much better is multiport going to be over a throttle body EFI kit? Hard question to answer, I know...but it seems like it would be far superior. Maybe not in my application, but obviously there's no better method of fuel distribution... If I did go with OE stuff, I'd have to source a bunch of parts...but what all would I need? Upper and lower intake, obviously. Injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, etc. Would there be any benefit in the end over the Edelbrock multiport EFI kit? I guess the main benefit would be that it would have MAF (assuming I used the EFI parts from a Mustang?) I can't definitively answer the question about how much better a multi-port is over throttle body, but it interesting to note that none of the automobile manufacturers still use throttle body - as far as I know. So there's obviously some advantage since it has to cost more. As you said, the multi-port approach gives the best distribution possible since each cylinder should ingest the same amount of air with each revolution and giving each injector the same pulse should give the same amount of fuel. That's not true of a throttle body system where fuel can drop out of the mix due to twists and turns of the intake runners, which vary by cylinder. But another thing not normally though of is that the engineers can design the intake manifold/plenum differently for multi-port vs throttle body/carb use. I've run into that on Big Blue where I'm currently using an multi-port EFI plenum with a carb and have a lean off-idle issue. Apparently that is because the plenum is "big", meaning that the engineers didn't have to keep the runners small in order to keep the fuel in suspension. So the runners are big and at low velocity I'm having dropout issues, which I've covered up by fattening up the mix. So if you think about it the multi-port plenum can deliver more power because it doesn't have to keep the fuel in suspension. That doesn't mean that all plenums will deliver more power, but they can be designed to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_S85 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 The OE system you can run and Holley makes a Terminator wiring harness/ECM to hook up to the OE EFI system making it more like the sniper/terminator when it comes to tuning and data logging. If I had a OE EFI system I would go the Terminator ECM/harness route. You can now data log and make changes via a hand hell or through a laptop. I've been thinking about this EFI more and more, and now I'm curious about the Multiport kits. Seems like the only real choices are Edelbrock, or a Holley ECU kit with OE stuff... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-359300/make/ford How much better is multiport going to be over a throttle body EFI kit? Hard question to answer, I know...but it seems like it would be far superior. Maybe not in my application, but obviously there's no better method of fuel distribution... If I did go with OE stuff, I'd have to source a bunch of parts...but what all would I need? Upper and lower intake, obviously. Injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, etc. Would there be any benefit in the end over the Edelbrock multiport EFI kit? I guess the main benefit would be that it would have MAF (assuming I used the EFI parts from a Mustang?) Multi port is very efficient as you are spraying fuel at the intake valves directly into the cylinders vs a throttle body which is acting like a carburetor and spraying the fuel into the air stream at the start of the intake manifold. There is also two forms of multi port fuel injection as well, sequential fire and group fire. Sequential fire will give you the best fuel economy as each injector sprays in order for intake valves that are open and group fire just fires a group of injectors at a steady pulse even if the valve isnt open. The ProFlow 4 edelbrock multi port efi would probably be more cost effective. But you will have to make more changes when it comes to throttle cables. Its why I decided on the Sniper Stealth as in theory I should be able to reuse the OE throttle cable as its basically a 4150 carb pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Multi port is very efficient as you are spraying fuel at the intake valves directly into the cylinders vs a throttle body which is acting like a carburetor and spraying the fuel into the air stream at the start of the intake manifold. There is also two forms of multi port fuel injection as well, sequential fire and group fire. Sequential fire will give you the best fuel economy as each injector sprays in order for intake valves that are open and group fire just fires a group of injectors at a steady pulse even if the valve isnt open. The ProFlow 4 edelbrock multi port efi would probably be more cost effective. But you will have to make more changes when it comes to throttle cables. Its why I decided on the Sniper Stealth as in theory I should be able to reuse the OE throttle cable as its basically a 4150 carb pattern. Yes, Ford used "bank-fire" port injection up until the mid-90's on many of the trucks. For instance the 460 was bank-fire throughout its life save for 1996 on the CA-spec trucks, which is what Bill/85lebaront2 is running, and what I'm going to install on Big Blue this winter. From my reading the bank-fire approach worked quite well, but true sequential is slightly better. And since one of my goals was OBD2, which only the EEC-V SEFI system had for the 460, my choice was made for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 So, I took a rather drastic detour from my earlier plans and I ended up ordering a Summit 500CFM carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs I know the defacto standards these days are Edelbrock and Holley, but from what I could find the Summit carbs seem to get pretty good reviews. You guys will know more about it than me, but I guess it is an old Autolite? design, that Holley later took over as a #4100 model, and now Summit has it. Anyway, I have tossed this idea around for a couple years and decided to bite the bullet and try it out. An EFI swap was going to cost me over $2000, and I just couldn't come to terms with that right now...lol. The two big benefits of the Summit carb are the fact it is 500CFM (instead of my current 600CFM Holley) and I guess the annular boosters? I'm told that it will run better/crisper, etc... Internet reviews are a bit sketchy of course, but I found a lot where guys swapped out a Holley for one of these and they claim the difference was night and day. Subject to interpretation I guess... When I built this truck, I had it in my head that I wanted a Holley carb on it. There was no reason in particular, it was just a brand recognition thing and it was stuck in my head. It's funny though, I didn't realize that so many people dislike them lol. I've had people come up to me at the local car meets and comment "oh I see you have one of the junk Holleys on there" lol. A lot of people tell me that they could never get them to run right. Anyway, I wanted to try something different and EFI was a bit too rich for my blood right now. I've got some other things that I want to spend my money on, like getting my AC swap done, the serpentine swap with 3G alternator, and some serious sound proofing in the cab. Stay tuned. I'll start a new thread later to review the Summit carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 So, I took a rather drastic detour from my earlier plans and I ended up ordering a Summit 500CFM carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs I know the defacto standards these days are Edelbrock and Holley, but from what I could find the Summit carbs seem to get pretty good reviews. You guys will know more about it than me, but I guess it is an old Autolite? design, that Holley later took over as a #4100 model, and now Summit has it. Anyway, I have tossed this idea around for a couple years and decided to bite the bullet and try it out. An EFI swap was going to cost me over $2000, and I just couldn't come to terms with that right now...lol. The two big benefits of the Summit carb are the fact it is 500CFM (instead of my current 600CFM Holley) and I guess the annular boosters? I'm told that it will run better/crisper, etc... Internet reviews are a bit sketchy of course, but I found a lot where guys swapped out a Holley for one of these and they claim the difference was night and day. Subject to interpretation I guess... When I built this truck, I had it in my head that I wanted a Holley carb on it. There was no reason in particular, it was just a brand recognition thing and it was stuck in my head. It's funny though, I didn't realize that so many people dislike them lol. I've had people come up to me at the local car meets and comment "oh I see you have one of the junk Holleys on there" lol. A lot of people tell me that they could never get them to run right. Anyway, I wanted to try something different and EFI was a bit too rich for my blood right now. I've got some other things that I want to spend my money on, like getting my AC swap done, the serpentine swap with 3G alternator, and some serious sound proofing in the cab. Stay tuned. I'll start a new thread later to review the Summit carb. That's a nice looking carb. And I've heard and read good things about the annular boosters. I'll bet you have a great experience. I'll stay tuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 So, I took a rather drastic detour from my earlier plans and I ended up ordering a Summit 500CFM carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs I know the defacto standards these days are Edelbrock and Holley, but from what I could find the Summit carbs seem to get pretty good reviews. You guys will know more about it than me, but I guess it is an old Autolite? design, that Holley later took over as a #4100 model, and now Summit has it. Anyway, I have tossed this idea around for a couple years and decided to bite the bullet and try it out. An EFI swap was going to cost me over $2000, and I just couldn't come to terms with that right now...lol. The two big benefits of the Summit carb are the fact it is 500CFM (instead of my current 600CFM Holley) and I guess the annular boosters? I'm told that it will run better/crisper, etc... Internet reviews are a bit sketchy of course, but I found a lot where guys swapped out a Holley for one of these and they claim the difference was night and day. Subject to interpretation I guess... When I built this truck, I had it in my head that I wanted a Holley carb on it. There was no reason in particular, it was just a brand recognition thing and it was stuck in my head. It's funny though, I didn't realize that so many people dislike them lol. I've had people come up to me at the local car meets and comment "oh I see you have one of the junk Holleys on there" lol. A lot of people tell me that they could never get them to run right. Anyway, I wanted to try something different and EFI was a bit too rich for my blood right now. I've got some other things that I want to spend my money on, like getting my AC swap done, the serpentine swap with 3G alternator, and some serious sound proofing in the cab. Stay tuned. I'll start a new thread later to review the Summit carb. A lot of people like that carburetor. 👍 I think (and hope) you'll find it a perfect compliment to your 302! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpin Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 So, I took a rather drastic detour from my earlier plans and I ended up ordering a Summit 500CFM carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs I know the defacto standards these days are Edelbrock and Holley, but from what I could find the Summit carbs seem to get pretty good reviews. You guys will know more about it than me, but I guess it is an old Autolite? design, that Holley later took over as a #4100 model, and now Summit has it. Anyway, I have tossed this idea around for a couple years and decided to bite the bullet and try it out. An EFI swap was going to cost me over $2000, and I just couldn't come to terms with that right now...lol. The two big benefits of the Summit carb are the fact it is 500CFM (instead of my current 600CFM Holley) and I guess the annular boosters? I'm told that it will run better/crisper, etc... Internet reviews are a bit sketchy of course, but I found a lot where guys swapped out a Holley for one of these and they claim the difference was night and day. Subject to interpretation I guess... When I built this truck, I had it in my head that I wanted a Holley carb on it. There was no reason in particular, it was just a brand recognition thing and it was stuck in my head. It's funny though, I didn't realize that so many people dislike them lol. I've had people come up to me at the local car meets and comment "oh I see you have one of the junk Holleys on there" lol. A lot of people tell me that they could never get them to run right. Anyway, I wanted to try something different and EFI was a bit too rich for my blood right now. I've got some other things that I want to spend my money on, like getting my AC swap done, the serpentine swap with 3G alternator, and some serious sound proofing in the cab. Stay tuned. I'll start a new thread later to review the Summit carb. Looks nice! Interesting, I never messed with Holleys until I got this truck. I like it. I’ve made several adjustments, changed jets and all and so far I like it. It’s a new 4160 I bought several years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_S85 Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 So, I took a rather drastic detour from my earlier plans and I ended up ordering a Summit 500CFM carb. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs I know the defacto standards these days are Edelbrock and Holley, but from what I could find the Summit carbs seem to get pretty good reviews. You guys will know more about it than me, but I guess it is an old Autolite? design, that Holley later took over as a #4100 model, and now Summit has it. Anyway, I have tossed this idea around for a couple years and decided to bite the bullet and try it out. An EFI swap was going to cost me over $2000, and I just couldn't come to terms with that right now...lol. The two big benefits of the Summit carb are the fact it is 500CFM (instead of my current 600CFM Holley) and I guess the annular boosters? I'm told that it will run better/crisper, etc... Internet reviews are a bit sketchy of course, but I found a lot where guys swapped out a Holley for one of these and they claim the difference was night and day. Subject to interpretation I guess... When I built this truck, I had it in my head that I wanted a Holley carb on it. There was no reason in particular, it was just a brand recognition thing and it was stuck in my head. It's funny though, I didn't realize that so many people dislike them lol. I've had people come up to me at the local car meets and comment "oh I see you have one of the junk Holleys on there" lol. A lot of people tell me that they could never get them to run right. Anyway, I wanted to try something different and EFI was a bit too rich for my blood right now. I've got some other things that I want to spend my money on, like getting my AC swap done, the serpentine swap with 3G alternator, and some serious sound proofing in the cab. Stay tuned. I'll start a new thread later to review the Summit carb. Thats the carb I bought for my 302 when I started my build, the 600cfm Summit Vac Secondary. It is a upgraded Holley version of the old Ford 4100 4V carb. From what I have gathered Holley actually builds these units for Summit so what you are getting is essentially a Holley built carb just without the Holley name plastered all over it. It also has annular boosters as you mentioned which atomizes the fuel better than a straight dog leg booster. The OE carbs went annular for better atomization but in aftermarket carbs you dont get annular boosters unless you are willing to spend $800 - $900 on an edelbrock carb. I havent seen one holley with annular boosters which makes this carb a great affordable unit for someone wanting OE style performance for the street. You can also use the Holley quick change secondary spring kit on the Summit carb as well as the Holley secondary cam kit as well. I actually bought all of that, the quick change secondary kit, the cam lobe kit to change out the accelerator pump squirt profile as well as a jet kit for fine tuning the jets. But I am not using mine I kept all of it in the box and I am going Sniper Stealth. I am leaning towards using it on my 351W in my Mercury since there is no fuel tank options out there with in tank pumps unlike our trucks where the 85/86 had the large opening fuel tank for the in tank fuel pump. In the end I bought that carb cause it came highly recommended and everyone loved it. Same way everyone loves the AFR 165cc Renegade heads on the 302`s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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