Building a house (off-topic!)

[ArdWrknTrk]

Last thing on the solar panels the company that was installing them was also working on battery storage it just was not approved at the time of install for us.

We were more looking to lower our bill at the time but also "save us from our selves" LOL

Dave ----

And it won't get approved if lobbies have their way

Distributed and point-of-use generation are going to be needed given the lack of grid updates and maintenance.

Dave.... You know that your Eversource bill could be $15 for kwh used and 45 for 'distribution services'

I just want to go live in a cave

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

And it won't get approved if lobbies have their way

Distributed and point-of-use generation are going to be needed given the lack of grid updates and maintenance.

Dave.... You know that your Eversource bill could be $15 for kwh used and 45 for 'distribution services'

I just want to go live in a cave

I've been watching a few more videos.

This looks very similar???

[Ford F834]

I've been watching a few more videos.

This looks very similar???

Yes, I watched that one, I somehow thought that manufacturer was back east but they are in Tempe AZ. I just requested pricing info and product details. Their blocks are 12”x60”x10” thick, not asymmetric like TPB. I’m curious what they charge and what the specs are (concrete volume etc.), maybe I do have brand choice without really high shipping? Both manufacturers are close enough I could even haul it myself with the Superduty if the freight and all terrain fork life rental is obscenely priced.

https://efbm.com/about/

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes, I watched that one, I somehow thought that manufacturer was back east but they are in Tempe AZ. I just requested pricing info and product details. Their blocks are 12”x60”x10” thick, not asymmetric like TPB. I’m curious what they charge and what the specs are (concrete volume etc.), maybe I do have brand choice without really high shipping? Both manufacturers are close enough I could even haul it myself with the Superduty if the freight and all terrain fork life rental is obscenely priced.

https://efbm.com/about/

I see their church is a dome.

Like I've said, it's the product that matters not the presentation.

At least i was able to watch a few videos without cringing.

So, do you simply call a nearby redimix plant to deliver the grout?

Do you hire a local pumping company to do it for you?

The guys that did the ICF I worked on were good at their job, but missed a few details that resulted in rework and compromise of the 'system'

Not sure if the problems were the plan wasn't drawn right, or they didn't read the plan.

 

[Ford F834]

I see their church is a dome.

Like I've said, it's the product that matters not the presentation.

At least i was able to watch a few videos without cringing.

So, do you simply call a nearby redimix plant to deliver the grout?

Do you hire a local pumping company to do it for you?

The guys that did the ICF I worked on were good at their job, but missed a few details that resulted in rework and compromise of the 'system'

Not sure if the problems were the plan wasn't drawn right, or they didn't read the plan.

As far as I can tell, you just need how ever many yards of 3000 psi concrete with a max gravel size of 3/8” and a high slump, preferably from plasticizer, not too much water. You rent the pump equipment separate from the concrete delivery. When you rent/hire the pump, it comes with an operator. You want him to show up 30 min or so before the truck so he can set up. The operator doesn’t do anything except run the pump and take care of the equipment. In addition, you need 4-5 more guys. Their proposed roles/responsibilities are really well described in TPB technical manual, along with a really good checklist for grout day. I know their promotional video is hokey, but the technical support is excellent and the guy who wrote the manual (Rick Tindal) was extremely helpful over the phone. The support is good enough to make me want to choose their product over others, but EF Block might be just as good in that department. We shall see... and ultimately price will matter if there is a large difference.

My issue is the 4-5 guys to grout the block. I probably won’t be able to find anyone here with experience. Rick says a crew proficient with grouting CMU should be able to handle it, or better yet a crew who has done white block ICF which is touchier than ICCF. Unfortunately it looks like I will need the crew three separate times, and three pump rentals. But it is what it is. I don’t want catastrophe by trying to do too much at once.

[ArdWrknTrk]

As far as I can tell, you just need how ever many yards of 3000 psi concrete with a max gravel size of 3/8” and a high slump, preferably from plasticizer, not too much water. You rent the pump equipment separate from the concrete delivery. When you rent/hire the pump, it comes with an operator. You want him to show up 30 min or so before the truck so he can set up. The operator doesn’t do anything except run the pump and take care of the equipment. In addition, you need 4-5 more guys. Their proposed roles/responsibilities are really well described in TPB technical manual, along with a really good checklist for grout day. I know their promotional video is hokey, but the technical support is excellent and the guy who wrote the manual (Rick Tindal) was extremely helpful over the phone. The support is good enough to make me want to choose their product over others, but EF Block might be just as good in that department. We shall see... and ultimately price will matter if there is a large difference.

My issue is the 4-5 guys to grout the block. I probably won’t be able to find anyone here with experience. Rick says a crew proficient with grouting CMU should be able to handle it, or better yet a crew who has done white block ICF which is touchier than ICCF. Unfortunately it looks like I will need the crew three separate times, and three pump rentals. But it is what it is. I don’t want catastrophe by trying to do too much at once.

I can't speak to filling styrofoam blocks, but running a grout pump is not for the uninitiated.

Yeah, obviously you need to get the lowest course solid before building up the walls.

Hydrostatic pressure is immense, and if the form (block in your case) starts to lift, you're screwed.

Timing is everything with concrete. Too much lift at once will blow out the form. Too much time between will result in cold joints.

When the bridge fell down in '83 the new pylons were over 80' high and had to be monolithic pour.

(We babysat that over 2 days, getting the timing right so the loads already in the forms had time to firm up, but the top would still become one.)

I have no idea how far you are from the batch plant, or how rugged the terrain is at your job site.

The last thing you want is a 'Hot Batch' and rushing to get it out of the mixer and pump before it cakes up.

Have as much water at hand as you possibly can, when the time comes.

Maybe even borrow or rent extra IBC's.

The waterjet cleaning cost for a pump full of hard concrete will break you.

I'm sure (being Arizona) the locals pour at dawn and might use retardant.

Beyond reducing water used and getting it pumped, plasticizer helps a lot avoiding honeycomb and getting the bubbles to rise.

 

[Ford F834]

I can't speak to filling styrofoam blocks, but running a grout pump is not for the uninitiated.

Yeah, obviously you need to get the lowest course solid before building up the walls.

Hydrostatic pressure is immense, and if the form (block in your case) starts to lift, you're screwed.

Timing is everything with concrete. Too much lift at once will blow out the form. Too much time between will result in cold joints.

When the bridge fell down in '83 the new pylons were over 80' high and had to be monolithic pour.

(We babysat that over 2 days, getting the timing right so the loads already in the forms had time to firm up, but the top would still become one.)

I have no idea how far you are from the batch plant, or how rugged the terrain is at your job site.

The last thing you want is a 'Hot Batch' and rushing to get it out of the mixer and pump before it cakes up.

Have as much water at hand as you possibly can, when the time comes.

Maybe even borrow or rent extra IBC's.

The waterjet cleaning cost for a pump full of hard concrete will break you.

I'm sure (being Arizona) the locals pour at dawn and might use retardant.

Beyond reducing water used and getting it pumped, plasticizer helps a lot avoiding honeycomb and getting the bubbles to rise.

Rick told me that the pump “rental” typically comes with a pump operator who is responsible for running and cleaning the equipment... set up etc., and that’s exactly how I would want it. That’s a pricey piece of gear and I wouldn’t want to be responsible for it not knowing anything about them.

The blocks are a lot stronger and more stable than white block ICF. If you follow the manual, Rick says blow outs are basically a thing of the past. Corners, openings and penetrations need a bit of bracing just to be on the safe side. They pour grout in 5’ lifts, filling through holes cut in the block at that height. You can go back and do a second lift on the same pour, but they don’t recommend building the wall taller than 10’ at a time. Any more than that and you need to build in stages, adding block to a grouted wall with lapped rebar to tie it together. In my case, the foundation wall will be 5 courses, then 8’ and 14’ on top of that respectively. Rick suggested that I grout the foundation wall height first, or perhaps one course higher, then build the house walls in two more stages. My high wall will be 19’ from footing to mud sill so theoretically it could be built in just two stages, 4 lifts, without exceeding the 10’ height. But if he recommends three stages I will take his advice. It also might be beneficial to grout the foundation wall, then build the floor so I have that surface to roll my scaffolding around on for building and grouting the rest. The manual pretty much insists that you work off of a slab, but if there isn’t one you have to make do working in the dirt. The grouting can go pretty quickly though, and being able to roll scaffolding on a floor would really help.

I know for sure there is a cement plant in Bullhead City, about 25-30 miles from us. We are a ways off the beaten path, but everything is paved except the last 1/3 mile or so, and that is a wide, nicely maintained county section line road. Our driveway has a bit of rise, but is only a problem for really low clearance rigs with a long overhang. We shouldn’t have any problems getting equipment to the site.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Rick told me that the pump “rental” typically comes with a pump operator who is responsible for running and cleaning the equipment... set up etc., and that’s exactly how I would want it. That’s a pricey piece of gear and I wouldn’t want to be responsible for it not knowing anything about them.

The blocks are a lot stronger and more stable than white block ICF. If you follow the manual, Rick says blow outs are basically a thing of the past. Corners, openings and penetrations need a bit of bracing just to be on the safe side. They pour grout in 5’ lifts, filling through holes cut in the block at that height. You can go back and do a second lift on the same pour, but they don’t recommend building the wall taller than 10’ at a time. Any more than that and you need to build in stages, adding block to a grouted wall with lapped rebar to tie it together. In my case, the foundation wall will be 5 courses, then 8’ and 14’ on top of that respectively. Rick suggested that I grout the foundation wall height first, or perhaps one course higher, then build the house walls in two more stages. My high wall will be 19’ from footing to mud sill so theoretically it could be built in just two stages, 4 lifts, without exceeding the 10’ height. But if he recommends three stages I will take his advice. It also might be beneficial to grout the foundation wall, then build the floor so I have that surface to roll my scaffolding around on for building and grouting the rest. The manual pretty much insists that you work off of a slab, but if there isn’t one you have to make do working in the dirt. The grouting can go pretty quickly though, and being able to roll scaffolding on a floor would really help.

I know for sure there is a cement plant in Bullhead City, about 25-30 miles from us. We are a ways off the beaten path, but everything is paved except the last 1/3 mile or so, and that is a wide, nicely maintained county section line road. Our driveway has a bit of rise, but is only a problem for really low clearance rigs with a long overhang. We shouldn’t have any problems getting equipment to the site.

I think pouring the foundation and building the first deck to provide a work surface is a wise move.

I understand blowouts are rare, I was talking more about having that first course above the deck, so the form can't shift or lift.

The pump operator can only do so much if you get a hot load.

I imagine he could refuse to pump it at all...?

But this is where having an efficient crew that works together and knows what to watch for pays off.

I was thinking more about terrain at the house itself.

That there's access and room for the mixer to be on the level as it feeds the pump.

You might ask the batch plant in Bullhead City about a pump operator.

It always helps when the driver and pumper know one another.

 

[Ford F834]

You might ask the batch plant in Bullhead City about a pump operator.

It always helps when the driver and pumper know one another.

Jim this is an extremely good suggestion! I will pursue this.

I have an update on the EF block. I spoke with Sue Ellen on the phone, and read Dan’s technical literature on their product. They are great people and offer awesome support. Their plant is very close to me, so freight would be minimal. She said they come up regularly from Tempe to support their plant, and she said they would be more than happy to have one of their people come out to help with the grouting at the cost of their daily wage which seems extremely fair. They have been doing this for 31 years and want to make sure every project done with their blocks is a success. Their blocks are also considerably cheaper. They not only cost less per block, but the blocks are 25% longer (60” vs 48”) which makes them 45% less per square foot than TPB’s 10” asymmetric. (And still 25% less per square foot than TPB’s 8” block). They use just a shade more concrete, but not enough to worry about. They definitely seem to be a better value, and she said their pricing has been flat since this plant opened in 2016? Seems like a pretty easy choice to make!

[ArdWrknTrk]

You might ask the batch plant in Bullhead City about a pump operator.

It always helps when the driver and pumper know one another.

Jim this is an extremely good suggestion! I will pursue this.

I have an update on the EF block. I spoke with Sue Ellen on the phone, and read Dan’s technical literature on their product. They are great people and offer awesome support. Their plant is very close to me, so freight would be minimal. She said they come up regularly from Tempe to support their plant, and she said they would be more than happy to have one of their people come out to help with the grouting at the cost of their daily wage which seems extremely fair. They have been doing this for 31 years and want to make sure every project done with their blocks is a success. Their blocks are also considerably cheaper. They not only cost less per block, but the blocks are 25% longer (60” vs 48”) which makes them 45% less per square foot than TPB’s 10” asymmetric. (And still 25% less per square foot than TPB’s 8” block). They use just a shade more concrete, but not enough to worry about. They definitely seem to be a better value, and she said their pricing has been flat since this plant opened in 2016? Seems like a pretty easy choice to make!

Well it's great you've reached out to them!

If their prices are better and they're willing to come to your site to help for a nominal cost, it does look like a win, win.

Having someone from their A-team supervising and lending a hand at that critical stage could make all the difference.

I definitely hope the rest of the bumps in this project continue to get ironed out like this.

"I love it when a plan comes together!"