ArdWrknTrk Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Sorry guys. Been very busy. I have a spare pivot. When I get some time, I will mic it up and make a 3d model and post it on my GrabCAD account. Might be awhile. Ray, we know you're a busy man. And holidays, and ... The fact that you offer to do this for the betterment of all early Bullnose owners speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Cecil Posted November 26, 2019 Author Share Posted November 26, 2019 Ray, we know you're a busy man. And holidays, and ... The fact that you offer to do this for the betterment of all early Bullnose owners speaks volumes. Jim, I am thinking....why not engineer a better solution? First we would need to try and understand the loads it sees. Not only from the zbar, but from the twisting of the engine. You cant do accurate FEA until you understand how to sim the loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Jim, I am thinking....why not engineer a better solution? First we would need to try and understand the loads it sees. Not only from the zbar, but from the twisting of the engine. You cant do accurate FEA until you understand how to sim the loads. Ray, I absolutely understand that, and that's why I started with the qualifier that I've never owned a mechanical clutch truck. Obviously Ford's engineers knew it was a problem, or they wouldn't have gone with a more complex hydraulic clutch in '83 (for the reintroduction of the 460/diesel) and '84 for the Windsor bell patterns. My thought was that IF a retrofit part could address SOME of the apparent fragility, anyone could use this 'upgraded' part without changing everything. I mean, plenty of people have adapted the later hydraulic system. Obviously a hose has no problem with the driveline v chassis movement. This is why I suggested a failure analysis as a starting point. Other than wear from neglect, what is it that causes these things to break? I know the loads must be huge, given the length of the bar and the leg force applied to overcome the pressure plate. Then you add some sloppy transmission and engine mounts, engine torque or driveshaft torque when trailing throttle.... Is it that these moments exceed the X degrees of freedom afforded by the ball and socket, and it just binds up or twists off? I don't have one and I will be the first to admit, that part is beyond my ability to visualize due to unfamiliarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 I don't have one and I will be the first to admit, that part is beyond my ability to visualize due to unfamiliarity. Here is what the "ball" looks like on the 300/6. This one was a very low mile original piece on a 1980...I think it just barely had 30,000 miles on it. Ray now has this piece. For reproduction purposes, it should be a pretty good example since the plastic bushing still remains...or at least some of it. Presume this means that the ball itself is still relatively intact. Considering this part, and the whole linkage, is hanging under the truck exposed to all of the road grime, dirt, debris, and water it's no wonder they wear out the way they do. I think the failure mode is that the plastic bushing wears away, then the metal on metal contact rapidly wears out the ball, and it breaks off. Somebody can correct me on this...I'm a hydraulic clutch guy after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 I don't have one and I will be the first to admit, that part is beyond my ability to visualize due to unfamiliarity. Here is what the "ball" looks like on the 300/6. This one was a very low mile original piece on a 1980...I think it just barely had 30,000 miles on it. Ray now has this piece. For reproduction purposes, it should be a pretty good example since the plastic bushing still remains...or at least some of it. Presume this means that the ball itself is still relatively intact. Considering this part, and the whole linkage, is hanging under the truck exposed to all of the road grime, dirt, debris, and water it's no wonder they wear out the way they do. I think the failure mode is that the plastic bushing wears away, then the metal on metal contact rapidly wears out the ball, and it breaks off. Somebody can correct me on this...I'm a hydraulic clutch guy after all... Thank you Cory. That's pretty much what I surmised, but as I said, I don't have any personal validation. The plastic ball is still available, correct? At least the pivot (perch?) won't be corroding and providing a beachhead for cracks to propagate if it is made in stainless and bronze. Maybe some rework of the shape, reducing sharp corners and increasing radii will help? As Tom said there is no cost for making the part more complex, only cost for volume. I'm interested in seeing the ones for Windsor and 335 series engines as well! Because that is essentially just a stud, as Dave said, above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Thank you Cory. That's pretty much what I surmised, but as I said, I don't have any personal validation. The plastic ball is still available, correct? At least the pivot (perch?) won't be corroding and providing a beachhead for cracks to propagate if it is made in stainless and bronze. Maybe some rework of the shape, reducing sharp corners and increasing radii will help? I didn't think that there were any parts available for the mechanical clutch linkage, plastic or otherwise, but somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. As I said, I am a hydraulic clutch guy and greatly prefer that system, despite any issues it may have. I'm not really familiar with the mechanical clutch system linkage, but a cheap "fix" for that ball and socket arrangement would be a straight shaft with a heim joint on it, wouldn't it? I'm just guessing of course...but a more rigid ball joint assembly (with a grease nipple) would be the bee's knees as they say. My whole three-on-the-tree fiasco really jaded me on mechanical linkages...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Thank you Cory. That's pretty much what I surmised, but as I said, I don't have any personal validation. The plastic ball is still available, correct? At least the pivot (perch?) won't be corroding and providing a beachhead for cracks to propagate if it is made in stainless and bronze. Maybe some rework of the shape, reducing sharp corners and increasing radii will help? I didn't think that there were any parts available for the mechanical clutch linkage, plastic or otherwise, but somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. As I said, I am a hydraulic clutch guy and greatly prefer that system, despite any issues it may have. I'm not really familiar with the mechanical clutch system linkage, but a cheap "fix" for that ball and socket arrangement would be a straight shaft with a heim joint on it, wouldn't it? I'm just guessing of course...but a more rigid ball joint assembly (with a grease nipple) would be the bee's knees as they say. My whole three-on-the-tree fiasco really jaded me on mechanical linkages...lol. A few years ago I got the plastic parts from LMC, and while that was for a 351M's linkage our handy dandy parts list says they all use the same parts. But I'm not seeing how a Heim joint would work on this. We need a bushing or bearing inside of the Z-bar, and I can't figure out how to do the Heim joint. Is there one that doesn't have the stud on the side of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 A few years ago I got the plastic parts from LMC, and while that was for a 351M's linkage our handy dandy parts list says they all use the same parts. But I'm not seeing how a Heim joint would work on this. We need a bushing or bearing inside of the Z-bar, and I can't figure out how to do the Heim joint. Is there one that doesn't have the stud on the side of it? Gary, Right you are! I didn't even notice that LMC had these parts...but then again, I've never looked for them either. Sorry for adding any confusion above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 But I'm not seeing how a Heim joint would work on this. We need a bushing or bearing inside of the Z-bar, and I can't figure out how to do the Heim joint. Is there one that doesn't have the stud on the side of it? There are plenty of joints that a stud fits through. That stud could be an oval headed machine screw. There are also spherical joints set in a lozenge shaped plate (or flange) That can be bolted or welded to some kind of bulkhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 But I'm not seeing how a Heim joint would work on this. We need a bushing or bearing inside of the Z-bar, and I can't figure out how to do the Heim joint. Is there one that doesn't have the stud on the side of it? There are plenty of joints that a stud fits through. That stud could be an oval headed machine screw. There are also spherical joints set in a lozenge shaped plate (or flange) That can be bolted or welded to some kind of bulkhead. Something like this joint below inserted in each end of the Z-Bar? https://secure.chassisshop.com/categories/5325/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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