Gary Lewis Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 But isnt the hot wire from the choke relay a reduced voltage or did Ford change that when they went to the relay setup? Rusty - According to the schematic, the relay is pulled in by the stator wire, but it then feeds battery voltage to the choke. Note that this is for the 351HO, not any other engine. I guess I should have said that as I started the discussion. Anyway, here's the page from the '85 EVTM: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_S85 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Rusty - According to the schematic, the relay is pulled in by the stator wire, but it then feeds battery voltage to the choke. Note that this is for the 351HO, not any other engine. I guess I should have said that as I started the discussion. Anyway, here's the page from the '85 EVTM: http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n87051/1985-etm-page53.jpg Correct, but my concern would be are we sure that ford didnt use a resistor wire to drop the voltage down. I wouldnt know as my truck the choke is ran off the stator itself without a relay. Just something I was thinking and its good to have verified to prevent issues cause if they are using a resistor wire to drop the voltage down it would make your volt gauge read low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Rusty - According to the schematic, the relay is pulled in by the stator wire, but it then feeds battery voltage to the choke. Note that this is for the 351HO, not any other engine. I guess I should have said that as I started the discussion. Anyway, here's the page from the '85 EVTM: http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n87051/1985-etm-page53.jpg Correct, but my concern would be are we sure that ford didnt use a resistor wire to drop the voltage down. I wouldnt know as my truck the choke is ran off the stator itself without a relay. Just something I was thinking and its good to have verified to prevent issues cause if they are using a resistor wire to drop the voltage down it would make your volt gauge read low. On the 460s, the stator wire goes directly to the choke cap, no relay so apparently the Holley choke cap is designed for 7.5V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 On the 460s, the stator wire goes directly to the choke cap, no relay so apparently the Holley choke cap is designed for 7.5V. Yep. It is strange that while both the 351HO and the 460 got a 4180C that one got a 12v choke heater and one got a 7v heater. But that must be the case 'cause the HO is the only one with a choke relay. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 On the 460s, the stator wire goes directly to the choke cap, no relay so apparently the Holley choke cap is designed for 7.5V. I have a moment to weigh in on this. I was definitely going the way Rusty was thinking. Not touching the cab side of C610, but it seems Gary wants to keep the whole plug and work from there. Rusty & Bill, the choke on the 351 HO 4180 is 12V just like most Holley's but it should have a single bullet, like all Motorcraft chokes. The 4180 on my truck, and my '85 Mustang both had chokes that ran on unrectified stator power. (Approximately 7.5V on a DC scale???) I would like to see the part number for the 460 & 351 HO choke coils, but I don't have the decoder ring, even if I did have the tag number from the two different 4180's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 I have a moment to weigh in on this. I was definitely going the way Rusty was thinking. Not touching the cab side of C610, but it seems Gary wants to keep the whole plug and work from there. Rusty & Bill, the choke on the 351 HO 4180 is 12V just like most Holley's but it should have a single bullet, like all Motorcraft chokes. The 4180 on my truck, and my '85 Mustang both had chokes that ran on unrectified stator power. (Approximately 7.5V on a DC scale???) I would like to see the part number for the 460 & 351 HO choke coils, but I don't have the decoder ring, even if I did have the tag number from the two different 4180's Jim - Help me understand what you, and Rusty, are thinking on the connector? Keep the cab half of it but tap in ahead of it? I'll go see what I can find on the choke coil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 I have a moment to weigh in on this. I was definitely going the way Rusty was thinking. Not touching the cab side of C610, but it seems Gary wants to keep the whole plug and work from there. Rusty & Bill, the choke on the 351 HO 4180 is 12V just like most Holley's but it should have a single bullet, like all Motorcraft chokes. The 4180 on my truck, and my '85 Mustang both had chokes that ran on unrectified stator power. (Approximately 7.5V on a DC scale???) I would like to see the part number for the 460 & 351 HO choke coils, but I don't have the decoder ring, even if I did have the tag number from the two different 4180's I can get it for you the next time I am out in the garage (currently about 25° here) as I have a new one in my tool box still in the package. BTW, it is rectified, look at the internal wiring on the 65 amp 2G as that is what was on Darth when I bought him. AllData gives E5PZ-9848-B for the 1986 351 HO and the same for the 1986 460. It may be that Ford wanted the 351 choke to come off faster either for emission reasons or that the engine will warm up faster than a 460. Gary, something for you, intake manifolds for carbureted and TBI engines need a slight amount of roughness on the inside of the runners to provide some turbulence in the air flow to keep the fuel droplets from condensing on the walls, also the reason for manifold heat to help vaporize the fuel better. On a port injection system, smooth flow of the air into the cylinders is the desired condition as the fuel is sprayed into the air stream under pressure and aimed at the back of the intake valve (on bank fired this means a portion of the delivery is onto closed valves which, according to theory doesn't matter). In the real world it apparently does as I have seen 2 and read about a 3rd 460 with a problem in #5 cylinder that are caused by a lean condition. It may be the grouping of the injectors 1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7 or the fact that the 460s use a 180° manifold instead of the long ram design that the 300, 302 and 351 use, or it may be a combination of the 2. I had resequenced the bank fired wiring on Darth before I went to the MAF/SEFI system so that they were grouped as a TBI would feed, 1,4,6,7 and 2,3,5,8 it ran pretty smoothly and the plugs looked pretty even on mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Jim - Help me understand what you, and Rusty, are thinking on the connector? Keep the cab half of it but tap in ahead of it? I'll go see what I can find on the choke coil... I have enough old harness parts that if I were to do it again I would pin a length of yellow 10Ga. primary wire for the cab power and a length of green 16 for the cab-on power going to the 3G regulator plug. But, that's just me, and amputating at the knee instead of below the knee is just the way I'd want to operate. John should do like Scott said and follow the dark blue fuselink to the relay. He has the old harness, he can tell where it reaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 I have enough old harness parts that if I were to do it again I would pin a length of yellow 10Ga. primary wire for the cab power and a length of green 16 for the cab-on power going to the 3G regulator plug. But, that's just me, and amputating at the knee instead of below the knee is just the way I'd want to operate. John should do like Scott said and follow the dark blue fuselink to the relay. He has the old harness, he can tell where it reaches. Bill - I can only get part numbers for the choke, not a description of it nor info on its voltage. So if you can get the part numbers and info on the voltage maybe we can build a list. Jim - Ok, I think I understand. What we might do is to give people an option, either cut the connector off and tap in ahead of it, or leave it and cut off behind it. There are advantages both ways. With the connector you could revert to the original arrangement if you should want to, and you'll have more wire which might make it easier to splice in. Without the connector you'll have a cleaner arrangement with less chance of the connector failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Bill - I can only get part numbers for the choke, not a description of it nor info on its voltage. So if you can get the part numbers and info on the voltage maybe we can build a list. Jim - Ok, I think I understand. What we might do is to give people an option, either cut the connector off and tap in ahead of it, or leave it and cut off behind it. There are advantages both ways. With the connector you could revert to the original arrangement if you should want to, and you'll have more wire which might make it easier to splice in. Without the connector you'll have a cleaner arrangement with less chance of the connector failing. Gary, I have the PNs and pictures. No voltage is given, but, the 460s used 7.5V direct from the alternator, but the 351 HO used 12V via a relay closed by the 7.5V lead from the stator. The only thing I can think of would be the warm up speed for the choke needing to be faster on the 351 (865 lbs of cast iron and 22 or more qts of coolant take a while). Viewed from the inside, clockwise is cold direction counterclockwise is warm direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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