T2K-CAR

[85lebaront2]

I'm still in the process, I have thought about pins. Right now I am working on cutting down the 2.5L crank gear. That powdered metal tears up the cutting tools.

What I am trying to get is an extended hub where the teeth are now, the idea being an interference fit between the hub and gear. so once the correct timing location for the crank gear is determined, they outer one can be heated to hopefully allow the center to be quickly inserted and clamped while it cools. Then possibly one or more roll pins coated with red Loctite so they can't come out at high rpm.

I finally decided to rough cut the 2.5L crank gear down to see what diameter I could get down to and still keep the strength at the keyway. I did this with an abrasive cutoff disc on my pneumatic angle grinder. I just cut the solid areas between the oval openings on the back side and then doing the same at the ovals. I cut in on the OD at the outer end of the teeth for the belt. I ended up with a 36.25 mm "snout"

I will have to (a) cut the snout so I have the proper distance to the end of the hole on the old gear and (b) open up the bore in the 2.4L gear so the 36.25 mm snout can be pressed into it. The other issue is the outer face of the old gear is where the crank pulley attaches and has to remain out from the block face in order to line up with the accessories, in particular the water pump and alternator.

On this, I may end up cutting the flange off of the 2.4L gear and using the back side of the adapter (made from the 2.5L gear) as the flange for the belt. The final piece of this puzzle will be the intermediate shaft gear, the original 2.5L gear is wide enough for the 28 mm belt width, but the position it needs to be in places the hub so far out it doesn't engage the key. I think I have an extra one of these, but if not I do have two extra older square tooth gears I can use. Plan is to face the short side of the hub off to the disc portion of the gear, then take another gear and cut the hub out leaving enough of the disc so that with it's short side removed it, with a portion of it's disc, can be turned into a hub putting the gear in alignment with the cam and crank gears by attaching it with short screws and nuts. I will most likely remove the protruding hub inside the front of the gear so I have enough length on the securing bolt.

The actual belt, careful measuring using the NAPA belt that came with the original head, gave me the following tooth counts: Tensioner all the way extended, 150 teeth, tensioner all the way retracted, 155 teeth. In perusing my comprehensive list of Dayco timing belts by length, I found a 152 tooth belt, 28 mm wide, T number T270. This fits a 1995-1997 Volvo V6 so is not difficult to find and one is on it's way.

[Gary Lewis]

I finally decided to rough cut the 2.5L crank gear down to see what diameter I could get down to and still keep the strength at the keyway. I did this with an abrasive cutoff disc on my pneumatic angle grinder. I just cut the solid areas between the oval openings on the back side and then doing the same at the ovals. I cut in on the OD at the outer end of the teeth for the belt. I ended up with a 36.25 mm "snout"

I will have to (a) cut the snout so I have the proper distance to the end of the hole on the old gear and (b) open up the bore in the 2.4L gear so the 36.25 mm snout can be pressed into it. The other issue is the outer face of the old gear is where the crank pulley attaches and has to remain out from the block face in order to line up with the accessories, in particular the water pump and alternator.

On this, I may end up cutting the flange off of the 2.4L gear and using the back side of the adapter (made from the 2.5L gear) as the flange for the belt. The final piece of this puzzle will be the intermediate shaft gear, the original 2.5L gear is wide enough for the 28 mm belt width, but the position it needs to be in places the hub so far out it doesn't engage the key. I think I have an extra one of these, but if not I do have two extra older square tooth gears I can use. Plan is to face the short side of the hub off to the disc portion of the gear, then take another gear and cut the hub out leaving enough of the disc so that with it's short side removed it, with a portion of it's disc, can be turned into a hub putting the gear in alignment with the cam and crank gears by attaching it with short screws and nuts. I will most likely remove the protruding hub inside the front of the gear so I have enough length on the securing bolt.

The actual belt, careful measuring using the NAPA belt that came with the original head, gave me the following tooth counts: Tensioner all the way extended, 150 teeth, tensioner all the way retracted, 155 teeth. In perusing my comprehensive list of Dayco timing belts by length, I found a 152 tooth belt, 28 mm wide, T number T270. This fits a 1995-1997 Volvo V6 so is not difficult to find and one is on it's way.

Bill - I’ve got it, I’ve got it, I ain’t got it. Somewhere about where the crank pulley attaches I get lost.

But at least I followed until there, and I do understand that you found the right belt. So that sounds good.

[85lebaront2]

Bill - I’ve got it, I’ve got it, I ain’t got it. Somewhere about where the crank pulley attaches I get lost.

But at least I followed until there, and I do understand that you found the right belt. So that sounds good.

Ok, let's try this then. In the bottom picture, the crank pulley (no harmonic balancer) bolts to the right side of that gear with 5 M8X1.25 bolts, the small protrusion barely visible where the cut away section is on the right is what the pulley centers on. It's position in relation to the block (in or out distance) is what lines up with the accessory drives AC, PS, ALT and WP, the last two are driven by a polygroove belt, the other two by V belts.

On the 2.4L engines the alternator has a polygroove belt, the water pump is driven by the timing belt. AC and PS by a serpentine belt. Chrysler did have a 4 cyl engine that used a single serpentine belt, it was the Turbo III a DOHC 2.2L. I have contemplated a similar setup but I believe it used a Tecumseh HR980 like some of the Ford 4 cyl engines did.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, let's try this then. In the bottom picture, the crank pulley (no harmonic balancer) bolts to the right side of that gear with 5 M8X1.25 bolts, the small protrusion barely visible where the cut away section is on the right is what the pulley centers on. It's position in relation to the block (in or out distance) is what lines up with the accessory drives AC, PS, ALT and WP, the last two are driven by a polygroove belt, the other two by V belts.

On the 2.4L engines the alternator has a polygroove belt, the water pump is driven by the timing belt. AC and PS by a serpentine belt. Chrysler did have a 4 cyl engine that used a single serpentine belt, it was the Turbo III a DOHC 2.2L. I have contemplated a similar setup but I believe it used a Tecumseh HR980 like some of the Ford 4 cyl engines did.

Ok, that I can get my head around.

But I am still getting lost on terminology. I thought a polygroove belt is the same as a serp belt but in a serpentine system there is only one belt. In a polygroove system there is two or more. So how can you have a polygroove belt and a serpentine belt in the same system? I’m obviously missing something.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ok, that I can get my head around.

But I am still getting lost on terminology. I thought a polygroove belt is the same as a serp belt but in a serpentine system there is only one belt. In a polygroove system there is two or more. So how can you have a polygroove belt and a serpentine belt in the same system? I’m obviously missing something.

'Polygroove' is a type of flat belt with multiple ribs.

'Serpentine' is a style of belt routing that snakes around and uses both the face and the back of the belt.

All serpentine belts are polygroove but not all polygroove belts are serpentine. (something like that)

[Gary Lewis]

'Polygroove' is a type of flat belt with multiple ribs.

'Serpentine' is a style of belt routing that snakes around and uses both the face and the back of the belt.

All serpentine belts are polygroove but not all polygroove belts are serpentine. (something like that)

So it is the back and forth, meaning using the ribbed side and then the flat side that makes the usage serpentine? I’d have to look, but doesn’t the 460 do that? At least it wraps around an idler on the back side, so maybe that doesn’t suffice?

[ArdWrknTrk]

So it is the back and forth, meaning using the ribbed side and then the flat side that makes the usage serpentine? I’d have to look, but doesn’t the 460 do that? At least it wraps around an idler on the back side, so maybe that doesn’t suffice?

You don't understand the difference between an object and an application?

When a belt is sold it's not in any configuration, but 'poly groove' is a descriptor. (and possibly an antiquated trade name)

[85lebaront2]

You don't understand the difference between an object and an application?

When a belt is sold it's not in any configuration, but 'poly groove' is a descriptor. (and possibly an antiquated trade name)

Let me try to explain what the difference is (a) polygroove is a description of the belt design, they are better suited for tight turns than a V belt (b) serpentine is a description of the belt routing, ie, like a serpent's path.

Most true serpentine belts systems use flat polygroove belts for there flexibility, greater grip and ability to drive from either side.

I will give some examples:

1994 Taurus 3.8L V6. Crank turns clockwise along with everything except the water pump.

1995 Lincoln Continental 4.6L DOHC V8 sideways as it is a Taurus based chassis. Everything turns clockwise.

2003 E series with V8 or V10 everything except the water pump turns clockwise.

Hope these help in understanding. FWIW, I have two 48" mower decks, one a 1991 Ford (deck is actually a 1989) and a 2001 New Holland where the deck V belt follows a serpentine path.

Note that the tensioner is normally the last item before the drive pulley.

 

[BigBrother-84]

Let me try to explain what the difference is (a) polygroove is a description of the belt design, they are better suited for tight turns than a V belt (b) serpentine is a description of the belt routing, ie, like a serpent's path.

[...]

FWIW, I have two 48" mower decks, one a 1991 Ford (deck is actually a 1989) and a 2001 New Holland where the deck V belt follows a serpentine path.

Interesting. I never pay attention to my 48" serpentine-path mower belt (which I had to change 2-3 times), I figured it was simply "V" belt. It has a V shape, so...

But you're right, it is less stiff and rigid than my old shack water pump V-and-not-serpentine drive belt, a real "V" one.

[Gary Lewis]

You don't understand the difference between an object and an application?

When a belt is sold it's not in any configuration, but 'poly groove' is a descriptor. (and possibly an antiquated trade name)

I understand the difference between an object and the application thereof. But I thought Bill was saying that the 460’s don’t have a serpentine belt system. That’s where I’m hung up.