Duraspark II-ish Starting Issue?

[kramttocs]

So, how does this configuration help the ignition switch power the PMGR starter better than wiring everything straight to the starter?

Not the switch but rather the relay (fender mounted and often called a solenoid). The actual ignition switch mounted halfway down on the steering column doesn't know the difference between the standard starter and the PMGR. All it knows is what it takes to energize the fender mounted relay.

The PMGR takes the load off the fender mounted relay because now the relay doesn't need to carry the load of the actual starter. Only the solenoid down on the starter. This means the relay is only carrying a fraction of what it can carry and thus the idea is that it will last a LOT longer.

Regarding the fuse links, you shouldn't necessarily need to know where they go although it's always good info to have no doubt. Just saying there is no need to track them down through the harness(es). Only that they should be mounted to the same post on the fender mounted relay as the POS cable (as well as the large awg cable that goes to the starter).

Think of that post/stud as just a distribution point. The fuse links and even the larger awg cable going to the starter could just as well be connected directly to the POS battery terminal.

Speaking of the fuse links - could you add a photo of the fender mounted relay and all the wires around it that are or aren't connected? We should be able to give you some info on what they are for.

[Jason2215]

So, how does this configuration help the ignition switch power the PMGR starter better than wiring everything straight to the starter?

Not the switch but rather the relay (fender mounted and often called a solenoid). The actual ignition switch mounted halfway down on the steering column doesn't know the difference between the standard starter and the PMGR. All it knows is what it takes to energize the fender mounted relay.

The PMGR takes the load off the fender mounted relay because now the relay doesn't need to carry the load of the actual starter. Only the solenoid down on the starter. This means the relay is only carrying a fraction of what it can carry and thus the idea is that it will last a LOT longer.

Regarding the fuse links, you shouldn't necessarily need to know where they go although it's always good info to have no doubt. Just saying there is no need to track them down through the harness(es). Only that they should be mounted to the same post on the fender mounted relay as the POS cable (as well as the large awg cable that goes to the starter).

Think of that post/stud as just a distribution point. The fuse links and even the larger awg cable going to the starter could just as well be connected directly to the POS battery terminal.

Speaking of the fuse links - could you add a photo of the fender mounted relay and all the wires around it that are or aren't connected? We should be able to give you some info on what they are for.

That's a great way to explain it, thank you! And absolutely that would be great. Here are a few pictures of different locations that may affect what's going on:

Feel free to offer any suggestions on anything you see. It'll all eventually get touched I'm sure!

[kramttocs]

That's a great way to explain it, thank you! And absolutely that would be great. Here are a few pictures of different locations that may affect what's going on:

Feel free to offer any suggestions on anything you see. It'll all eventually get touched I'm sure!

I read over the first post again after seeing the fender mounted relay (fmr) and it finally clicked with what was going on. Sorry, didn't get last night what Bill grasped right off the bat.

Hadn't ever thought about anyone moving everything down to the starter solenoid and foregoing the fender mounted relay. When you said nothing was hooked to it I read that as it was removed recently for diagnostics. That also make sense with the mention of added load on the ignition switch since the solenoid takes a lot more than the fmr. Again, sorry everyone for being late to the party.

Taking it in a multi step approach:

1. Ignore the stud on the starter solenoid with 3 wires (positive battery, 2 fuse links)

2. Remove the smaller red wire and move it to the S stud on the fmr. As mentioned earlier, it should be crimped to a red/blue wire when they extended it down there to the starter solenoid.

3. Run a wire from the battery positive to the far left hand stud on the fmr. We can talk about battery cable terminal options later but for this test you can loosen the clamp holding the wire (not the battery stud), insert a stripped end of wire in there and clamp it back. Then run this wire to the left hand stud. Again, I would not do this permanently. Use 8/10 awg for this. It may change later depending upon what is done with the fuse links.

Once that is done you can test the ignition switch and fmr. Nothing should be on the right hand stud except for the multimeter.

When not cranking, the right hand stud on the fmr should show no voltage. When cranking it should show full voltage. I would test this a number of times and report back.

[Jason2215]

I read over the first post again after seeing the fender mounted relay (fmr) and it finally clicked with what was going on. Sorry, didn't get last night what Bill grasped right off the bat.

Hadn't ever thought about anyone moving everything down to the starter solenoid and foregoing the fender mounted relay. When you said nothing was hooked to it I read that as it was removed recently for diagnostics. That also make sense with the mention of added load on the ignition switch since the solenoid takes a lot more than the fmr. Again, sorry everyone for being late to the party.

Taking it in a multi step approach:

1. Ignore the stud on the starter solenoid with 3 wires (positive battery, 2 fuse links)

2. Remove the smaller red wire and move it to the S stud on the fmr. As mentioned earlier, it should be crimped to a red/blue wire when they extended it down there to the starter solenoid.

3. Run a wire from the battery positive to the far left hand stud on the fmr. We can talk about battery cable terminal options later but for this test you can loosen the clamp holding the wire (not the battery stud), insert a stripped end of wire in there and clamp it back. Then run this wire to the left hand stud. Again, I would not do this permanently. Use 8/10 awg for this. It may change later depending upon what is done with the fuse links.

Once that is done you can test the ignition switch and fmr. Nothing should be on the right hand stud except for the multimeter.

When not cranking, the right hand stud on the fmr should show no voltage. When cranking it should show full voltage. I would test this a number of times and report back.

Scott, I’m on it! Just so we don’t have any confusion (on my part) left meaning the post closes to the firewall, not the front of the truck.

[kramttocs]

Scott, I’m on it! Just so we don’t have any confusion (on my part) left meaning the post closes to the firewall, not the front of the truck.

Let's do numbers instead as left/right can get confusing.

I am referring to 1 and 2 for now. Please verify that 2 has an S near it. I haven't seen S and I swapped but always good to confirm.

The wire from the battery will go to 1.

The smaller red wire currently alone down on the starter solenoid will go to 2.

Nothing will be on 3.

Multimeter will go to 4 and ground.

 

[Jason2215]

Let's do numbers instead as left/right can get confusing.

I am referring to 1 and 2 for now. Please verify that 2 has an S near it. I haven't seen S and I swapped but always good to confirm.

The wire from the battery will go to 1.

The smaller red wire currently alone down on the starter solenoid will go to 2.

Nothing will be on 3.

Multimeter will go to 4 and ground.

Yes sir. Back in a few. Keeping the starter stud w the 3 wires as is.

[Jason2215]

Let's do numbers instead as left/right can get confusing.

I am referring to 1 and 2 for now. Please verify that 2 has an S near it. I haven't seen S and I swapped but always good to confirm.

The wire from the battery will go to 1.

The smaller red wire currently alone down on the starter solenoid will go to 2.

Nothing will be on 3.

Multimeter will go to 4 and ground.

Ok, reading battery voltage to terminal 1. When I put the meter on terminal 4 and ground, meter jumps all over (I’m no pro so if I have my meter on the wrong setting?)

When the car cranks, terminal 4 stays solid at 11.71. Then when key is off it goes wild again.

FWIW, I can feel the fmr physically kick when key is turned.

Here’s what I’m using on the meter. Battery is now pretty low after trying to crank it for days, I’m sure. It was 12.36 when I tested it 10 minutes ago.

Edit: wife left key in “on”. Batt reads 12.24 now.

[kramttocs]

Ok, reading battery voltage to terminal 1. When I put the meter on terminal 4 and ground, meter jumps all over (I’m no pro so if I have my meter on the wrong setting?)

When the car cranks, terminal 4 stays solid at 11.71. Then when key is off it goes wild again.

FWIW, I can feel the fmr physically kick when key is turned.

Here’s what I’m using on the meter. Battery is now pretty low after trying to crank it for days, I’m sure. It was 12.36 when I tested it 10 minutes ago.

Edit: wife left key in “on”. Batt reads 12.24 now.

1. What values are you seeing 4 jump around to when the key is off?

2. If you check the voltage on 2 with the key off, what do you get?

 

[Jason2215]

1. What values are you seeing 4 jump around to when the key is off?

2. If you check the voltage on 2 with the key off, what do you get?

Grounded and on terminal 2, I'm receiving steady 9.5 to 9.6v until the key is turned off, then back to 0.

The numbers on terminal 4 with no action is all over the place rapidly. Into the hundreds, decimals under 1, etc. I don't know if it's user error or what but my other readings all look normal. I am grounding the black prong on the fmr bracket portion bolted to the fender for all these.

BTW, really appreciate all the help. I'm excited to get this back to working order.

[kramttocs]

Grounded and on terminal 2, I'm receiving steady 9.5 to 9.6v until the key is turned off, then back to 0.

The numbers on terminal 4 with no action is all over the place rapidly. Into the hundreds, decimals under 1, etc. I don't know if it's user error or what but my other readings all look normal. I am grounding the black prong on the fmr bracket portion bolted to the fender for all these.

BTW, really appreciate all the help. I'm excited to get this back to working order.

Interesting. I would expect higher than 9.6v on the R/Bl but I can check mine later. As you are seeing/feeling/hearing, that is enough to pull in the relay though.

What more concerns me is voltage on 4 with the key off. Since the next step is to run a new 8/10awg wire from 4 to the starter solenoid (the stud that original had the red wire that is now on 2), I don't want you doing that if there is any chance the starter could engage with the key off.

It's not uncommon for off the shelf fmr's to be bad or go bad quickly. You could disconnect 1 and check continuity between 1 and 4 but I think I'd just go pick up a new one.

I don't see that the fmr was replaced in the first post. Do you know the history of it? Possibly it going bad was the reason everything was moved to the starter solenoid?