Cab upgrades

[86 12 Brutus]

Prior to Class D ( as far as the automobile is concerned ) we were stuck with relavtively low power, but our low power stuff sounded better, the only real thing class d did for us was give us power and no alternator whine. Many today dont know about alternator wine like we did back in the day, but all the radio's and amps now use a switch mode power supply which gets rid of the alternator wine. The switch mode power supply is what also gave us the ability to have more power, not only with class d, but all other classes as well. The ranchero's amp that nick built is A/AB. It is full class A to half power, then AB. it would be total class A, but class A is low wattage, but the truest to form. With the switch mode power supply, we are not stuck with the 12 volts of the alternator like we were in the past. In the past with us only being able to have 12 volts, we were generally stuck around 20 watts or so. 12 volts x 2 amp draw = 24 watts. A switch mode power supply can supply anyvoltage that it wants to. Example, the amp in the ranchero is running on over 300 volts at about a half amp. I like the sound of high voltage. the factory radio in brutus was one of the frist to use a switch mode power supply. it uses it in the radio and tuner section and draws 26 volts

i read over what you copied from the specs of your sony. I'm going to still say it is a strong 30 to 35 watts. If in the specs it were to say 45 watts RMS X 4 all Channels Driven into a 4 ohm load. then i would believe it. But again, watts is nothing but a game. Manufacturers go with the higher rated figures to get you to buy there stuff. Sony makes good stuff, but Sony is not strong, they never were ( now dont go throwing the sony away, sony sounds very good, but if you are looking for balls to the walls loud, you need to look past sony) but this is not what you are trying to do, i just need to use it as an example. not all 40 watt amps are the same.

i'll explain in the next post.

brb

[86 12 Brutus]

i read over what you copied from the specs of your sony. I'm going to still say it is a strong 30 to 35 watts. If in the specs it were to say 45 watts RMS X 4 all Channels Driven into a 4 ohm load. then i would believe it. But again, watts is nothing but a game. Manufacturers go with the higher rated figures to get you to buy there stuff. Sony makes good stuff, but Sony is not strong, they never were ( now dont go throwing the sony away, sony sounds very good, but if you are looking for balls to the walls loud, you need to look past sony) but this is not what you are trying to do, i just need to use it as an example. not all 40 watt amps are the same.

i'll explain in the next post.

brb

How does an amplifier get its watt figure. It is volts x amps = watts. you probably already know this\

the job of an amplifier is to accurately take a small signal and enlarge it, andis done many different ways. What goies into and comes out of amplifiers is Sine Wave.

When you look at it on a scope, you want to see the signal not modified at all, just larger. How well they do this generally is governed by it's price tag so to speak.

Class A amplifiers ( which you will not find in a vehicle ) are the purest

Class A/B amplifiers still hold true to form as they can, but gives you more power

Class B. Still sounds ok but gives you power cheaply

Class D. Very powerful, very cheap to produce and is not faithful to the sound

Class A, the semiconductors weather solid state or tube are always on, they do not switch

Class A/b The semiconductors are most of the time on, but they do switch as little as possible.

Class B The semiconductors are doing more switching.

Class D. also known as the Digital switching amplifier. this is how it was introduced to us and it's semiconductors are constantly switching. A Class d amp does not produce sine wave, it produces what is called modified sine wave

Lets use 40 watts as an example.

a 40 watt full class A amplifier is going to have a very large very powerful power supply that only uses a single rail for voltage and most of the time are single end. In a nutshell, very few components and alot of wasted energy, but are among the strongest you will get if we were to be looking at a 40 watt class a. Example for class A. It's power output would be rated at 40 watts, which might look something like this. 10 volts at 4 amps. This is very strong, even though only using 10 volts, you have 4 amps. Voltage is preasure, current is work. but again, these amps are very very innificient and wast alot of energy but are the finest.

Class A/B, the next best thing. Class A/B uses dual rail voltages because the amplifiers are what is known as Push/Pull. Push / pull i'm not going to get to deep into this because i am going to loose you. Push/ Pull is the norm, basically in a nutshell, it is 2 single end amps, the signal goes through whats called a phase inverter and splits the signal, 1 half is sent to 1 side, the other half is knocked 180 degrees out of phase and sent to the other side, the result is a stronger output. You do start to loose faithfulness, but not that much, there are some ab's that can rival A's.

So a typical class A/B 40 watt amp would look something like this. 20 volts x 2 amp = 40 watts. It's still strong and does not waste as much energy.

Class D. main reson for its developement is high power and no energy waste, a typical 40 watt class d would look something like this. 60 volts x .6 amps = 38 watts ( just an example )

you can see the class d although putting out 40 watts is not as strong

Typically a manufacturer will give you the highest rated spec, this is the absolute maximum the semiconductors they use can dicipate which like i said in Brutus's radio is unusable.

But as you can see and these are just examples and there are so many ways to come about it.

Example

Your sony puts out 45 watts per channel.

One of my favorite car amps, the old Rockford Fosgate Punch 45 also puts out 45 watts per channel. the punch is going to outperform the sony by leaps and bounds not only because it is class a/b, but it's power supply is much much stronger and is using higher current with less voltage. the end result. you can get louder with the punch even though they are both 40 watt amps driving the same speakers. This and this alone is most of the reason watts is irrevelant.

The punch 45 puts out a pure hard honest 45 watts which most other manufacturers would say is 150 watts given the heat energy dicipated and they would use the maximum ratings of the semiconductors to give you a crazy figure to make you buy it

Class D is here for a reson and we cant get away from it. me, i do not like it, but i am an audiophile and you will probably never hear any difference. the class D amp does have it's place in audio and we do need it in our cars and trucks and those portable loud bluetooth speakers etc. Its cheap to produce and gives you gobs of power, but you must be kind to them, although they put out alof of power, they are weak. keeping this in mind, you choose the most efficient speakers you can find that sound good to you. But in the end, sound is left up to the person listening to it.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

How does an amplifier get its watt figure. It is volts x amps = watts. you probably already know this\

the job of an amplifier is to accurately take a small signal and enlarge it, andis done many different ways. What goies into and comes out of amplifiers is Sine Wave.

When you look at it on a scope, you want to see the signal not modified at all, just larger. How well they do this generally is governed by it's price tag so to speak.

Class A amplifiers ( which you will not find in a vehicle ) are the purest

Class A/B amplifiers still hold true to form as they can, but gives you more power

Class B. Still sounds ok but gives you power cheaply

Class D. Very powerful, very cheap to produce and is not faithful to the sound

Class A, the semiconductors weather solid state or tube are always on, they do not switch

Class A/b The semiconductors are most of the time on, but they do switch as little as possible.

Class B The semiconductors are doing more switching.

Class D. also known as the Digital switching amplifier. this is how it was introduced to us and it's semiconductors are constantly switching. A Class d amp does not produce sine wave, it produces what is called modified sine wave

Lets use 40 watts as an example.

a 40 watt full class A amplifier is going to have a very large very powerful power supply that only uses a single rail for voltage and most of the time are single end. In a nutshell, very few components and alot of wasted energy, but are among the strongest you will get if we were to be looking at a 40 watt class a. Example for class A. It's power output would be rated at 40 watts, which might look something like this. 10 volts at 4 amps. This is very strong, even though only using 10 volts, you have 4 amps. Voltage is preasure, current is work. but again, these amps are very very innificient and wast alot of energy but are the finest.

Class A/B, the next best thing. Class A/B uses dual rail voltages because the amplifiers are what is known as Push/Pull. Push / pull i'm not going to get to deep into this because i am going to loose you. Push/ Pull is the norm, basically in a nutshell, it is 2 single end amps, the signal goes through whats called a phase inverter and splits the signal, 1 half is sent to 1 side, the other half is knocked 180 degrees out of phase and sent to the other side, the result is a stronger output. You do start to loose faithfulness, but not that much, there are some ab's that can rival A's.

So a typical class A/B 40 watt amp would look something like this. 20 volts x 2 amp = 40 watts. It's still strong and does not waste as much energy.

Class D. main reson for its developement is high power and no energy waste, a typical 40 watt class d would look something like this. 60 volts x .6 amps = 38 watts ( just an example )

you can see the class d although putting out 40 watts is not as strong

Typically a manufacturer will give you the highest rated spec, this is the absolute maximum the semiconductors they use can dicipate which like i said in Brutus's radio is unusable.

But as you can see and these are just examples and there are so many ways to come about it.

Example

Your sony puts out 45 watts per channel.

One of my favorite car amps, the old Rockford Fosgate Punch 45 also puts out 45 watts per channel. the punch is going to outperform the sony by leaps and bounds not only because it is class a/b, but it's power supply is much much stronger and is using higher current with less voltage. the end result. you can get louder with the punch even though they are both 40 watt amps driving the same speakers. This and this alone is most of the reason watts is irrevelant.

The punch 45 puts out a pure hard honest 45 watts which most other manufacturers would say is 150 watts given the heat energy dicipated and they would use the maximum ratings of the semiconductors to give you a crazy figure to make you buy it

Class D is here for a reson and we cant get away from it. me, i do not like it, but i am an audiophile and you will probably never hear any difference. the class D amp does have it's place in audio and we do need it in our cars and trucks and those portable loud bluetooth speakers etc. Its cheap to produce and gives you gobs of power, but you must be kind to them, although they put out alof of power, they are weak. keeping this in mind, you choose the most efficient speakers you can find that sound good to you. But in the end, sound is left up to the person listening to it.

I had a detailed response, hit 'post' and got sent to the homepage! 😣

This forum is flakey sometimes...

I get it.

I don't have great expectations from a modest headunit.

My old one kept shutting down (not off, the amp would drop out)

I assumed it was filthy inside and couldn't shed the heat.

So I paired this stereo with those Polk speakers for the doors, but I mistakenly thought that the fuzz and low output from the rear was due to the bad amp, and not that the speakers were tattered.

Now I have to find something to replace them.

As for Amps, I get it, this is class-D so I can't be looking for great fidelity.

I simply wanted a unit with enough power that I wouldn't have to push it, and hoped that would limit distortion/clipping.

I also get it about cascading (or push-pull, I'm not good with audio terminology)

Just like I would say phase locked loop and not Superhetrodyne.

I appreciate you taking the time to write a book for me.

As for the truck, I have 4.10's, a 6.32:1 1st and 2.56 Lo from the transfer case if I need it.

I almost never use 1st anyway, and in Lo the truck is screaming at 6-7 mph.... but you will NOT stop it if it has traction.

[ArdWrknTrk]

i read over what you copied from the specs of your sony. I'm going to still say it is a strong 30 to 35 watts. If in the specs it were to say 45 watts RMS X 4 all Channels Driven into a 4 ohm load. then i would believe it. But again, watts is nothing but a game. Manufacturers go with the higher rated figures to get you to buy there stuff. Sony makes good stuff, but Sony is not strong, they never were ( now dont go throwing the sony away, sony sounds very good, but if you are looking for balls to the walls loud, you need to look past sony) but this is not what you are trying to do, i just need to use it as an example. not all 40 watt amps are the same.

i'll explain in the next post.

brb

Oh, it does say 45 RMS on all 4 channels, driving 4A....

I don't get 'sold' on advertising.

I think about what I need, and want, and make a decision.

Sony always seemed like they sold solid electronics.

I can't think of anything exceptional, except for when they first released the Trinatron.

That was high quality, for the time.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Oh, it does say 45 RMS on all 4 channels, driving 4A....

I don't get 'sold' on advertising.

I think about what I need, and want, and make a decision.

Sony always seemed like they sold solid electronics.

I can't think of anything exceptional, except for when they first released the Trinatron.

That was high quality, for the time.

So I get hung up on sound pressure.

There seem TWO standards.

1W @ 1M.

And @ 2.83V

I get it that that should be 2W, but is there a formula so that realistic comparisons can be made?

I think I've found a pair of speakers.. but you never know.

One thing I DO know, is that if it seems like a good deal it probably isn't....

Eta: I did find this though: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/38356-1w-1m-vs-2-83v

[ArdWrknTrk]

So I get hung up on sound pressure.

There seem TWO standards.

1W @ 1M.

And @ 2.83V

I get it that that should be 2W, but is there a formula so that realistic comparisons can be made?

I think I've found a pair of speakers.. but you never know.

One thing I DO know, is that if it seems like a good deal it probably isn't....

Eta: I did find this though: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/38356-1w-1m-vs-2-83v

Even if I take into account the three decibel factor, these speakers seem right for me.

Right size, right wattage, and at 99DB. Even if I knock it back to 96 they blow everything else under $100 out of the water.....

https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-PS65LP-4-Efficient-Full-Range/dp/B0719M5V6V

So tell me where I'm wrong? :shrug

[ArdWrknTrk]

Frequency response is relative, sort of like watts. It just depends on what kind of music you listen to. Music generally has its best bass in and around 60 hz which most can do rather well, some better then others, so as a general rule, a system that goes down to the 50's is fine. Everything goes up to 20k even though none of us can hear above 15, and us older folks are lucky we can hear anything over 6k

I get this!

Back in the late '70's I got a Kenwood home stereo that was 400w a side.

When I purchased an (at the time) old pair of Cerwin Vega speakers it came alive!

I didn't need to turn it WAY up, and fidelity improved.

[Gary Lewis]

Even if I take into account the three decibel factor, these speakers seem right for me.

Right size, right wattage, and at 99DB. Even if I knock it back to 96 they blow everything else under $100 out of the water.....

https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-PS65LP-4-Efficient-Full-Range/dp/B0719M5V6V

So tell me where I'm wrong? :shrug

I dunno, Jim. I like speakers with a second driver for highs, and this one doesn't seem to have one. Or at least I don't think it does.

And there are no reviews on Amazon. But Parts Express has reviews and they aren't stellar. Plus, Crutchfield doesn't seem to have them. I'm skeptical.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I dunno, Jim. I like speakers with a second driver for highs, and this one doesn't seem to have one. Or at least I don't think it does.

And there are no reviews on Amazon. But Parts Express has reviews and they aren't stellar. Plus, Crutchfield doesn't seem to have them. I'm skeptical.

Exactly!

Too good to be believed?

Crutchfield does have these: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_953PRX602/Memphis-Audio-PRX602.html?tp=78072

But the bottom end is 100Hz and at 88DB, they are not very efficient.

Which is why I asked the question....

[86 12 Brutus]

Exactly!

Too good to be believed?

Crutchfield does have these: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_953PRX602/Memphis-Audio-PRX602.html?tp=78072

But the bottom end is 100Hz and at 88DB, they are not very efficient.

Which is why I asked the question....

Jim. you will definately get good fidelity out of those Dayton speakers, and will be very loud. yes you will get decent highs out of them, but you will need a tweeter, these are what is known as a full range speaker. me personally i like them, you may or may not want to add a tweeter to them it really just depends on the environment inside your truck. But you are delving into my relm of spekers here. Me, i would buy them, i've looked at these for the ranchero. The only problem i can forsee is they could possibly be to loud for the sub to keep up, but you do have a balance/fader. If you plan on using the polks as well, i think this is a really good choice. Again, you may or may not want tweeters. If you have seperate trebble controlls on all of your channels, kick the tribble up on the these and you will be fine.

Back in the day when you bought the Cerwin Vega's, yes the Kenwood sounded way better, Cerwin Vega's are very efficient allowing that kenwood to breathe. If you liked that sound, then go with what you picked out.

As far as the spl figure's, 1 watt,1meter and 2.8v are pretty much the same thing, it's just the measurement they used to get the figure and means nothing, either way it still produces the same end result