Best alternator option?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Just about every V belt I see today have knobs cut in the back side, this was done for better grip. Goodyear Gatorback is the one that comes to mind, those belts would grab and not let go compared to other belts. Problem is the gatorback V belt is very hard to find now a days for most applications.

This used to be the go to belt we used at work when we had V belts that just wouldnt stop squealing when tensioned to specifications. Now we are forced to overload the tension of the belt where you can walk on it just to stop the slippage cause the gatorback belts are hard to find today. I tried to get one for my truck for my AC as my dealer setup I think has a little slip as the belt vibrates like crazy making a rattling rumbling noise.

As far as the new stuff they have out now that I have not given a try to this is what is the specifications of the newer V belts but I may give one of them a try considering I am going to try and stop belt vibration on my AC as its annoying.

-Narrow Wedge V Belt

"Effectively handling drives from 1 to 1,000 hp, these belts

rank high in horsepower-hours per dollar, the ultimate measure of drive valve. The narrow-belt cross sections (3V, 5V, and

8V), offer higher power capacity for any sheave size and

weight.

The narrow or “wedge” design provides more tensile member

support than classical V-belts. Narrow belts handle an equivalent load, but with narrower face width and smaller diameters than the traditional classical V-belts. These features allow

the use of smaller belts or fewer belts to transmit the load, an

important advantage if your goal is to maximize power transmission efficiency by reducing drive weight and size."

-Classic V Belt

"The most widely used V-belts are A, B, C, and D classical

belts. Used more out of habit and convenience than design,

these belts can handle fractional to 500-hp drives, usually

at the lowest cost. However, they occupy more space, and

the drives weigh more than narrow-belt drives. Also, classical

belts are usually less efficient than narrow belts. But their

versatility and wide range of sizes and types make them an

attractive alternative to wedge belts.

Many classical belts are used for replacement because it is considered too costly to replace sheaves when upgrading from

classical to narrow or other belt types. Therefore, when replacing classical sheaves, it is an opportune time to upgrade to narrow or other belt types"

Not sure which one I would end up going with, its something I would have to look up the specs of the belt for our trucks and then find the same specs dimension wise on Goodyear`s site. When I looked them up before on rockauto for instance, there is no goodyear belt listing for my truck for any belt. I didnt try summit but I suspect its one of those things where there wont be a specified listing and youll have to find the size through either trial and error or looking up the parts.

But the belt does determine how much grip there is. belt wrap also plays into it cause with more wrap the more contact area you have it can make belts grip better than if they were only making a fraction of the wrap.

Like powersteering, GM setups from the 70`s and early 80`s had two belts running the powersteering pump but the belt wrap was between 80* and 100* compared to our trucks that have a 180* belt wrap of the alternator. Difference is powersteering pumps dont really need lots of belt traction unless you are locking it out. Alternators are different as they vary the load. But I know we used to have great luck with the gatorback v belts on grip just not avaliable anymore from Goodyear`s website as I guess they have been replaced.

I only have a dog in this fight in that I'm trying to combat misperceptions if not outright BS.

I recall Gary saying he wouldn't have the Powermaster if he couldn't service it.

But it really is just a beefed-up GM alternator, so IDK why that's an issue.

I went with a 3G because I was sick and tired of my 2G failing.

I imagine I could have been safe with a 1G, but didn't want to step backwards.

I looked at all my options (not many) and the videos and detailed documentation on the RJM website.

It seemed like the clear path forward.

While I think someone who currently has a 1G -and doesn't have charging problems- could roll with it forever, if you have a 2G by all means jump ship at the first sign of trouble before it burns up.

ETA: I also appreciate that it is charging at all engine speeds.

/Geek mode

Rusty,

The reason belts now have notches is that we have better materials -nylon, aramid- to make them from.

By making notches in them, they retain the amount of driving surface while greatly reducing their beam section.

We all know that flexing anything (from a paperclip, to a skyscraper) creates heat as well as tension on the outside and compression on the inside.

Full depth belts have to bend pretty abruptly around the smaller sheave.

By providing notches, the actual chord section is much smaller so the amount of tension and compression is too.

The embedded fiber bands (like Kevlar) can hold a LOT more than the canvas of yesteryear.

So we don't need as much to carry the load.

They also don't break down until much higher temperatures are reached (Nomex is also an Aramid)

V-belts are a time honored legacy, but they're not efficient.

Once we started using better fibers we started to see poly-groove and serpentine belts.

They are thin for the same reasons I stated above.

Their added advantage is that they have more surface area.

... a bigger contact patch if you will.

Look at the cross selection.

Follow the zig-zag path, or just make an accordion from a piece of paper and fold another sheet in half.

Lay the accordion on top of the folded paper and cut off the ends sticking out from beneath.

Stand both on edge. They're the same height....

And about the same width (that of a few sheets of paper)

But what happens when you stretch them out now?

If you had a really high load, you'd be using a Glimer (cogged) belt.

And that is why we see this kind of power transmission on cam drives and superchargers.

Questions?

/geek

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Haha now I know it will sound like I am defending Powermaster

To be fair though disliking a vendor because they don't provide a product you are looking for is entirely different than disliking them because they offer substandard products, have terrible customer service, or have less than honest intentions.....

This 100%!

I've got nothing against the company, no matter how outrageous I feel their prices are (for the product delivered)

As long as they don't misrepresent what they're selling I don't care what lipstick, bows or glitter they put on it.

There's a sucker born every minute, Caveat Emptor and all that....

[Rusty_S85]

I only have a dog in this fight in that I'm trying to combat misperceptions if not outright BS.

I recall Gary saying he wouldn't have the Powermaster if he couldn't service it.

But it really is just a beefed-up GM alternator, so IDK why that's an issue.

I went with a 3G because I was sick and tired of my 2G failing.

I imagine I could have been safe with a 1G, but didn't want to step backwards.

I looked at all my options (not many) and the videos and detailed documentation on the RJM website.

It seemed like the clear path forward.

While I think someone who currently has a 1G -and doesn't have charging problems- could roll with it forever, if you have a 2G by all means jump ship at the first sign of trouble before it burns up.

ETA: I also appreciate that it is charging at all engine speeds.

/Geek mode

Rusty,

The reason belts now have notches is that we have better materials -nylon, aramid- to make them from.

By making notches in them, they retain the amount of driving surface while greatly reducing their beam section.

We all know that flexing anything (from a paperclip, to a skyscraper) creates heat as well as tension on the outside and compression on the inside.

Full depth belts have to bend pretty abruptly around the smaller sheave.

By providing notches, the actual chord section is much smaller so the amount of tension and compression is too.

The embedded fiber bands (like Kevlar) can hold a LOT more than the canvas of yesteryear.

So we don't need as much to carry the load.

They also don't break down until much higher temperatures are reached (Nomex is also an Aramid)

V-belts are a time honored legacy, but they're not efficient.

Once we started using better fibers we started to see poly-groove and serpentine belts.

They are thin for the same reasons I stated above.

Their added advantage is that they have more surface area.

... a bigger contact patch if you will.

Look at the cross selection.

Follow the zig-zag path, or just make an accordion from a piece of paper and fold another sheet in half.

Lay the accordion on top of the folded paper and cut off the ends sticking out from beneath.

Stand both on edge. They're the same height....

And about the same width (that of a few sheets of paper)

But what happens when you stretch them out now?

If you had a really high load, you'd be using a Glimer (cogged) belt.

And that is why we see this kind of power transmission on cam drives and superchargers.

Questions?

/geek

Not saying V belts are efficient nor are they the best out there. But we do have Vbelts today that are worlds better than what we used to have with Vbelts. With modern materials and designs many exceed other v belts as well.

Such as the gatorback v belt that Goodyear used to offer. If you had a v belt that was slipping no matter how tight you get it, throw a gatorback on and the slippage was gone. People with V belts loved the Gatorback for how well they gripped for a V belt then they cease to produce them. Now you have to find something new, and the one I read up on that is interesting is the Goodyear Torque-Flex, I sent sales a message for a interchange for two part numbers cause they dont use effective length but outside length and all other belt manufacturers are using effective length so I end up with two belt sizes for each belt.

Im willing to give these belts a try cause I really like the whole 25% – 30% higher power ratings than standard V belts. The cogged vs noncogged graph for this belt also shows that cogged has an efficiency of some 93.8% to 98% for a 2" sheave diameter a 3" which is about what our alternator pulleys are is rated at 94.5% to 98%.

On the cogs they do provide cooling they also provide the ability to flex around smaller sheave pulleys. The main benefit of the cogs is that they allow flexibility for the belt to flex and fit around the sheave to ensure efficient contact. Sure its not as good as a serpentine belt and if it wasnt for my A/C I would at this time switch to a serpentine belt setup. It is just more work than I want to get involved with at the moment cause I dont know about you but Ive never seen a multi ribbed pulley for a York style ac compressor. I also havent seen a crank pulley for our trucks that has a multi ribbed sheave for the alternator belt like GM did in the 80`s where they retained V-belt drives for everything but the alternator.

The belts I am currently looking at as a possible match for alternator and fan/powersteering is either AX50 or AX51 and AX36 or AX37. I do look forward to giving this brand of belt a try and seeing how they stand up to standard belts. Im also curious about finding the size for my A/C belt just so I can see if the belt alone will stop the bouncing vibration of the belt. If not my only other option is to source a rebuilt York clutch hub for my '78 Mercury and throw it on as it has the inertia ring to remove harmonics from the compressor to stop belt bounce.

As far as powermaster goes, only thing I dont like about them is their whole 1 wire setup. I am strongly against 1 wire alternators because if your engine starts up but never hits the self exciting rpm your essentially running on the battery. I've actually had some cars I built at work with a 1 wire alternator that wouldnt charge driving normally if you never got the rpm to hit nearly 2,000 rpm. To me that is just a bad design for simplicity. Why I would go with a 3G alternator upgrade and any upgrade on my '56 will be a multi wire hook up not a one wire. none of my engines on cold start up are above 1,500 rpm and when driving my engine rpm never exceed 1,500 rpm when driving normally.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Not saying V belts are efficient nor are they the best out there. But we do have Vbelts today that are worlds better than what we used to have with Vbelts. With modern materials and designs many exceed other v belts as well.

Such as the gatorback v belt that Goodyear used to offer. If you had a v belt that was slipping no matter how tight you get it, throw a gatorback on and the slippage was gone. People with V belts loved the Gatorback for how well they gripped for a V belt then they cease to produce them. Now you have to find something new, and the one I read up on that is interesting is the Goodyear Torque-Flex, I sent sales a message for a interchange for two part numbers cause they dont use effective length but outside length and all other belt manufacturers are using effective length so I end up with two belt sizes for each belt.

Im willing to give these belts a try cause I really like the whole 25% – 30% higher power ratings than standard V belts. The cogged vs noncogged graph for this belt also shows that cogged has an efficiency of some 93.8% to 98% for a 2" sheave diameter a 3" which is about what our alternator pulleys are is rated at 94.5% to 98%.

On the cogs they do provide cooling they also provide the ability to flex around smaller sheave pulleys. The main benefit of the cogs is that they allow flexibility for the belt to flex and fit around the sheave to ensure efficient contact. Sure its not as good as a serpentine belt and if it wasnt for my A/C I would at this time switch to a serpentine belt setup. It is just more work than I want to get involved with at the moment cause I dont know about you but Ive never seen a multi ribbed pulley for a York style ac compressor. I also havent seen a crank pulley for our trucks that has a multi ribbed sheave for the alternator belt like GM did in the 80`s where they retained V-belt drives for everything but the alternator.

The belts I am currently looking at as a possible match for alternator and fan/powersteering is either AX50 or AX51 and AX36 or AX37. I do look forward to giving this brand of belt a try and seeing how they stand up to standard belts. Im also curious about finding the size for my A/C belt just so I can see if the belt alone will stop the bouncing vibration of the belt. If not my only other option is to source a rebuilt York clutch hub for my '78 Mercury and throw it on as it has the inertia ring to remove harmonics from the compressor to stop belt bounce.

As far as powermaster goes, only thing I dont like about them is their whole 1 wire setup. I am strongly against 1 wire alternators because if your engine starts up but never hits the self exciting rpm your essentially running on the battery. I've actually had some cars I built at work with a 1 wire alternator that wouldnt charge driving normally if you never got the rpm to hit nearly 2,000 rpm. To me that is just a bad design for simplicity. Why I would go with a 3G alternator upgrade and any upgrade on my '56 will be a multi wire hook up not a one wire. none of my engines on cold start up are above 1,500 rpm and when driving my engine rpm never exceed 1,500 rpm when driving normally.

Of course they're more efficient.

They're not turning power into heat (as much)

The basic laws of thermodynamics are pretty universal.

[Rusty_S85]

Of course they're more efficient.

They're not turning power into heat (as much)

The basic laws of thermodynamics are pretty universal.

Correct, just like flexing is heat generation, slippage is heat generation as well. I have a belt that I am trying to get a replacement for everyone they keep shipping to me is the wrong size when they pull them. The belt doesnt make noise but I know it is slipping cause some times my A/C blows real cold and some times it doesnt blow as cold. Some time the belt does make noise and then it goes away, thats why noise isnt the only thing to look for as far as belt slip is concerned. Even on my '56 my generator doesnt make noise but you can slip the generator a little if you spin the pulley back the opposite way. But I have deflection set right on the belt and I dont want to go too much tighter and wipe out the bearings on the generator.

On a 3G alternator, yeah I wont be too concerned about wiping out a bearing on there, I've seen people over tighten late model alternators way tighter than I do and never seen a bearing failed. Maybe it will fail long term over the course of 10 years or so but I dont think the alternator would have a bearing failure before the alternator would fail in of itself and cease to charge.

Another option I read of is to go up with a alternator pully size, it will slow the alternator down but it will also increase the surface area allowing for better grip. But you got to be careful with this cause you can kill power generation at idle. Why I will be doing all that math when I start mocking it up on the engine stand.

All I know is I am done with this indecisiveness Ive been having, I already ordered the soft start regulator and I added the 130A 3G alternator to my engine part list. I am fixing to look up fuses for my fuse holder and see if I can find one around 140A vs the 175A fuse that came with my free fuse holder. Theres no way in hell I will ever need 130A of power generation. Only thing next I need to settle my indecisiveness over is my aircleaner. I still havent purchased that one mustang one I found the price is good but Im just unsure on it for the price. But I will have to make a decision one way or another.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Correct, just like flexing is heat generation, slippage is heat generation as well. I have a belt that I am trying to get a replacement for everyone they keep shipping to me is the wrong size when they pull them. The belt doesnt make noise but I know it is slipping cause some times my A/C blows real cold and some times it doesnt blow as cold. Some time the belt does make noise and then it goes away, thats why noise isnt the only thing to look for as far as belt slip is concerned. Even on my '56 my generator doesnt make noise but you can slip the generator a little if you spin the pulley back the opposite way. But I have deflection set right on the belt and I dont want to go too much tighter and wipe out the bearings on the generator.

On a 3G alternator, yeah I wont be too concerned about wiping out a bearing on there, I've seen people over tighten late model alternators way tighter than I do and never seen a bearing failed. Maybe it will fail long term over the course of 10 years or so but I dont think the alternator would have a bearing failure before the alternator would fail in of itself and cease to charge.

Another option I read of is to go up with a alternator pully size, it will slow the alternator down but it will also increase the surface area allowing for better grip. But you got to be careful with this cause you can kill power generation at idle. Why I will be doing all that math when I start mocking it up on the engine stand.

All I know is I am done with this indecisiveness Ive been having, I already ordered the soft start regulator and I added the 130A 3G alternator to my engine part list. I am fixing to look up fuses for my fuse holder and see if I can find one around 140A vs the 175A fuse that came with my free fuse holder. Theres no way in hell I will ever need 130A of power generation. Only thing next I need to settle my indecisiveness over is my aircleaner. I still havent purchased that one mustang one I found the price is good but Im just unsure on it for the price. But I will have to make a decision one way or another.

Mostly the belt is less likely to slip with a bigger pulley because the drive ratio is less.

Just the same way a worn clutch will slip on the highway in 5th but be fine around town (for a little while)

Go check the math.

You will understand.

[Rusty_S85]

Mostly the belt is less likely to slip with a bigger pulley because the drive ratio is less.

Just the same way a worn clutch will slip on the highway in 5th but be fine around town (for a little while)

Go check the math.

You will understand.

Oh I plan to check the math eventually. I think I have the max alternator speed listed and I need to make sure at 5,500 to 6,000 rpm I dont exceed max alternator speed otherwise I will have to up the pulley size. Ideally I would use the same size pulley my 1G has if the speed is fine.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Oh I plan to check the math eventually. I think I have the max alternator speed listed and I need to make sure at 5,500 to 6,000 rpm I dont exceed max alternator speed otherwise I will have to up the pulley size. Ideally I would use the same size pulley my 1G has if the speed is fine.

Gary has a chart of pulley size V alternator speed, and charging output posted along with the test sheet I sent him.

But I have no idea where he has it posted.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary has a chart of pulley size V alternator speed, and charging output posted along with the test sheet I sent him.

But I have no idea where he has it posted.

I think I saw it in the 3G upgrade section

[Gary Lewis]

Gary has a chart of pulley size V alternator speed, and charging output posted along with the test sheet I sent him.

But I have no idea where he has it posted.

In a very logical place: Documentation/Electrical/Alternators. The pulley info is on the tab Output Vs RPM, and the test sheet is on the tab DB Electrical 130 Amp Test Results.