Factory Radio restoration and Modification by Nick

[86 12 Brutus]

There is a photo of the vent in this thread on FTE

Personally I wouldn't consider cutting into the door. Why not put a low profile all-in-one sub (or 4 ) under the bench? I am really happy with the Kicker 11HS8.

Ok, thats a problem, the speakers have to go behind, not in front. it's the same as the hack job 6x9's in Brutus's doors. the factory speakers were mounted up front, but the speakers i have now have to be mounted from the rear. the door pocket sits flush with the door

[86 12 Brutus]

Ok, thats a problem, the speakers have to go behind, not in front. it's the same as the hack job 6x9's in Brutus's doors. the factory speakers were mounted up front, but the speakers i have now have to be mounted from the rear. the door pocket sits flush with the door

my concern is window clearence

[Gary Lewis]

my concern is window clearence

I think you'll have a problem clearing the window. The magnet on these Sony speakers is ~3 1/4" in diameter. And since magnet size has a bearing on sound, I doubt you'll want to go smaller. So I think you'll have problems. But let us know how it goes.

[86 12 Brutus]

I think you'll have a problem clearing the window. The magnet on these Sony speakers is ~3 1/4" in diameter. And since magnet size has a bearing on sound, I doubt you'll want to go smaller. So I think you'll have problems. But let us know how it goes.

Gary; that is a concern of mine too is magnet clearence.. Sorry, I have to setp up onto my soap box again, well, not really, i'm not condescending when it comes to things like this, or at least i hope i'm not. If i appear to be, please let me know. Magnet size has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sound quality. It is a power handling thing. The magnet type does have an affect on sound however. Now-a-days, they go overboard with in trying to get people to yet again buy there speakers. A boy at work was bragging to me that he just bought a pair of subs that have 89lb magnets.

First and foremost, it is the speakers voice coil that is mostly going to determine it's power handling. The diameter of it and the gauge of wire used to wind the coil.

Do you remember me telling you about the kid from work that has a boom system in his truck and he came to my house and his jaw hitting the floor when he heard my bass at a whopping 15 watts. The magnets in my speakers are relatively small. They are Alnico magnets. I'm sure you have seen them, they are the magnets on the old speakers that are small and have what looks like a horse shoe over them, hence the term horse shoe magnets.

These type of magnets are my preference as the bass response is going to be second to none with this type of speaker. the magnetic field on this type of speaker is more prevelent on the north and south side of the magnet, yet can handle little power but is very efficient.

To improve on this, they came out with the alnico IV magnet which you can see in my speakers right here

If you notice, the 12" woofer at the botttom has a large rather skinny magnet, this is the alnico iv. Power handling was increased to 30 watts. The 10" woofer you see top right is the next gen after alnico iv. Although it is still alnico iv, the magnet is square. This is what started the magnetic field to cover more area of the voice coil, power handling on these , they were able to get up to 50 watts yet still very efficient and were still able to maintain that lush alnico bass. ( I reallly wish i could hang out with you guys. Ya'll would have some of the best sounding bullnoses around)

anyway. Into the 1970's we go.

In and about 1972 or so, 2 men, David Hafler of Dynaco, then later hafler, and Bob Carver of Phase Linear, then later Carver were able to break the 200 watt per channel using transistors. it was still at this time that both McIntosh and Sansui were still making there higher power stuff vacuum tube. Once they got transistors to produce this amount of wattage, something had to be done with the speakers. Speakers of old cannot handle this power ( unless you are crazy like me and dump over 80 watts into a speaker that can handle 15 and not blow them) but this is the sole ability of the amplifier, as my amps are hand built, they do not clip. I also have heat sinks glued to the back and front of the magnets to help dicipate the heat. Remember watts is heat as well, but as in my usual style, i'm getting off subject here

so once they broke 200 watts is when they came out with the ceramic magnet which is the style of magnets we know of today. The magnetic field of these types utilize the entire voice coil and there larger size they were able to get speakers to handle the power of the new solid state power amps.

Now comes the fun part. lets talk about voice coil size and spl. During this time period, 1972 and prior, as you know, speakers were very large or you simply had a console stereo. For the reasons given above, the alnico type speakers require large cabinets to give the full deep bass response of the then low powered tube and first generation solid state amplifiers, but these speakers were efficient so they required little power to drive loud.

Once they had the power, they were able to reduce the size of the speaker cabinet with the new ceramic magnets. They could handle the power the new amplifiers could give them, but these types of speakers are much harder to drive. What the main focus was is stability in the bass which they had at this point. it takes quite a bit of amplifier power to drive bass correctly. Bass is very hard to do, even today so they rely heavly on power rather then speaker cabinet configuration to drive bass in these now smaller cabinets. All of this so you dont have a big bulky speaker system sitting in your living room, and it was at this point where the console stereo began to go away

Nothing has changed really, although a modern speaker, and we are talking 1972 and later does have more solid , deep bass then the an average run of the mill speaker of yesteryear. But these new speakers require much more power and the power has to be very stable in order to compete with the better speakers from yesteryear.

Over the years as amplifier power increased, the speaker boxes got smaller and smaller until they got to the point they are at now. Bear in mind, these speakers do not play much louder then the ones of yesteryear, they just have better bass in a small box, again relying heavily on shear output power. hence the Class D amplifier. while no attention is paid to sound quality, it is rather power and nothing more. We have the class D to thank for Boom Cars. The class D we also have to thank for having 40 to 50 watts in our head units, but you know my feelings on the class D amp, although i have no use for them as they are untrue to the source, they do have there place. finally we can have decent power with just a car stereo and a pair of speakers. but i'm getting off track again

Now lets talk voice coil size. Voice coil and magnet size is where your power handling comes from and also the way the speaker " talks " I'm going to use a 12 inch woofer as an example here.

Have you ever noticed some speakers have very small dust caps, some larger and some very large?

This effects the frequencies the speaker can reproduce. and this is the main thing i look for when designing any type of speaker system and will determine weather a 2 or 3 way system will need to be used.

The outside edge of the speaker cone is what reproduces the lower bass, as the cone gets toward the middle is where it begins to climb in frequency, so if you have a 12" woofer with a very small say 1 inch coil, this type of speaker will " talk " it will produce low and mid/midrange frequencies. As this area around the coil gets larger, it effects the speakers ability to " talk " which is generally why a midrange speaker is added. A subwoofer has a very large coil that in some cases is almost half the size of the actual cone itself and they don't " talk " very much at all. With the larger coil, the speaker will appear to have much better bass because they simply cant " talk " and the speaker does not reproduce the upper frequencies, hence the amplifier has an easier time driving the bass. This is also why we use crossover networks to further eliminate frequencies we dont want the particular driver to reproduce.

That and that alone is why i dont particularly care for a so called subwoofer system. having a system that utilizes a subwoofer leaves a hole in the sound which is why, if you read Jim's post on cab upgrades where i ramble pretty much about the same thing there. Jim is using a small subwoofer for bass augmentation only. He has a pair of 6x9's in a box behind his seat and 2 door speakers. The 6x9's in the box behind his seat is where most of the bass and the fullness is going to come from because these speakers are allowed to " talk " and reproduce the lower midrange frequencies that subwoofer speakers simply cant

One thing about speakers i have designed, and have done many, everybody tells me they cant hear the crossover which is what i want, the speaker needs to speak to you in a full natural way.

These speakers that are called subwoofers, that term is used incorrectly now-a-days are actually not true subwoofers, it is just a woofer, nothing more with all mid and high frequencies removed.

A true subwoofer is intended to reproduce frequencies below what woofer can't do, and this is going to be 40 cycles and below. The subwoofer was originally intended for use for people who listen to classical music. In classical music, the bass is produced by a chello or what we know as " a stand up bass" these instruments can go down to 32 cycles which is very hard for a woofer to do. The pipe organ " the speaker killer" the lowest note on a pipe organ is 19 cycles. You need a dedicated speaker to do these. Rock, pop and country music and yes even rap music do not have any frequencies that go into this relm. The absolute lowest note an electric bass guitar can reproduce is around 50 cycles which any woofer will do better then a subwoofer. Believe it or not, rap music dosent even go down this far, it starts to cut off at about 60 cycles which is the easiest frequency for any amplifier to do, its just way over exaggerated.

But like i said somewhere above the narrower the frequency you give the speaker, the louder and more stable it will play which is why people use subs with rap music. if the speaker tries to talk, it will muddy up the bass, eliminating the talking frequencies, the speaker can concentrate on bass frequencies only.

Now lets talk about Brutus and why i want to put a speaker in the bottom of the door. As you know, he has 6x9's in his doors. They sound very very good and have very respectable bass at normal levels, but once you begin to drive harder, the speaker starts to fall apart in a sense because the woofer part is just trying to do to many frequencies. I still have to see exactly what is going to fit in there and do a bunch of math and such, but the speaker that will go in the bottom of the door will be the system's woofer, there will be a coil inline with the speaker to slightly eliminate the very upper frequencies which a large speaker does not do very well. The 6x9's in the door will have a coil across the speaker along with a capacitor in line to eliminate any and all bass frequencies i want removed from the speaker hence turning the 6x9 into a midbass and up. This will give the ability to play a bit louder with more stability and clarity because the 6x9's no longer have to try to reproduce bass

Now lets talk about Big Blue. Lets forget about the 6x9's that are in there right now and concentrate on the 6 inch door speakers. In this case, if you were to use the 6 inch in the doors, along with the 4 1/2's in the headliner, you will get nice full sound with the exception of bass. The door is just to large for a 6 inch speaker. In this case, a small subwoofer speaker would be needed, or what jim did with the 6x9's in the box behind the seat.. Being your doors are already hacked up, i would go with the 6x9's in the doors but in the place of the 6's. Those 6x9's that you have look like they would have some decent bass. if you went in this direction, i dont think you would need anything else. In my situation, i do need a bass speaker, or woofer, or whatever you want to call it. The speakers i am using in the doors are actually Ford speakers from a 95 crown vic. As far as sound quality, believe it or not, they sound better then just about anything out there until you get down on them which is why i need another speaker in the bottom of the door. i dont think you will have this problem with the 6x9's you have

Believe it or not, those factory 6 inch speakers that came in the doors of the trucks, and door speakers in the cars actually make incredible midrange speakers if crossed over correctly.

Sorry for the rambling, but with all my experience and knowledge, none of it does any good if i cant share it.

 

[86 12 Brutus]

George,

Have you guys installed these Aurora systems yet or are you using something else? It seems they can utilize the same potentiometers in different ways. Check out those videos. Very cool, but I would need a cheat sheet to remember how to activate all that stuff (:

https://www.tech-retro.com/aurora-design/home.html

Troy

Nick and I did some research on the aurora radio's. For what they are charging for these, i would not be happy in any way shape or form with the performance. These radios are loaded with about

$50 worth of cheap china module kits which we are very familiar with.. Basically he bought just about the cheapest class d amplifier kit and shoved it in the radio. I'm familiar with these kits and can be picked up all day long for about 15 bucks. I've also heard them. you would be much better off getting one of those classic car looking radio's for 250 bucks and put the rest of the money toward something else. It is simply not worth it, especially if the radio goes out, there is no guarantee replacement parts would be available

[Gary Lewis]

Gary; that is a concern of mine too is magnet clearence.. Sorry, I have to setp up onto my soap box again, well, not really, i'm not condescending when it comes to things like this, or at least i hope i'm not. If i appear to be, please let me know. Magnet size has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sound quality. It is a power handling thing. The magnet type does have an affect on sound however. Now-a-days, they go overboard with in trying to get people to yet again buy there speakers. A boy at work was bragging to me that he just bought a pair of subs that have 89lb magnets.

First and foremost, it is the speakers voice coil that is mostly going to determine it's power handling. The diameter of it and the gauge of wire used to wind the coil.

Do you remember me telling you about the kid from work that has a boom system in his truck and he came to my house and his jaw hitting the floor when he heard my bass at a whopping 15 watts. The magnets in my speakers are relatively small. They are Alnico magnets. I'm sure you have seen them, they are the magnets on the old speakers that are small and have what looks like a horse shoe over them, hence the term horse shoe magnets.

These type of magnets are my preference as the bass response is going to be second to none with this type of speaker. the magnetic field on this type of speaker is more prevelent on the north and south side of the magnet, yet can handle little power but is very efficient.

To improve on this, they came out with the alnico IV magnet which you can see in my speakers right here

If you notice, the 12" woofer at the botttom has a large rather skinny magnet, this is the alnico iv. Power handling was increased to 30 watts. The 10" woofer you see top right is the next gen after alnico iv. Although it is still alnico iv, the magnet is square. This is what started the magnetic field to cover more area of the voice coil, power handling on these , they were able to get up to 50 watts yet still very efficient and were still able to maintain that lush alnico bass. ( I reallly wish i could hang out with you guys. Ya'll would have some of the best sounding bullnoses around)

anyway. Into the 1970's we go.

In and about 1972 or so, 2 men, David Hafler of Dynaco, then later hafler, and Bob Carver of Phase Linear, then later Carver were able to break the 200 watt per channel using transistors. it was still at this time that both McIntosh and Sansui were still making there higher power stuff vacuum tube. Once they got transistors to produce this amount of wattage, something had to be done with the speakers. Speakers of old cannot handle this power ( unless you are crazy like me and dump over 80 watts into a speaker that can handle 15 and not blow them) but this is the sole ability of the amplifier, as my amps are hand built, they do not clip. I also have heat sinks glued to the back and front of the magnets to help dicipate the heat. Remember watts is heat as well, but as in my usual style, i'm getting off subject here

so once they broke 200 watts is when they came out with the ceramic magnet which is the style of magnets we know of today. The magnetic field of these types utilize the entire voice coil and there larger size they were able to get speakers to handle the power of the new solid state power amps.

Now comes the fun part. lets talk about voice coil size and spl. During this time period, 1972 and prior, as you know, speakers were very large or you simply had a console stereo. For the reasons given above, the alnico type speakers require large cabinets to give the full deep bass response of the then low powered tube and first generation solid state amplifiers, but these speakers were efficient so they required little power to drive loud.

Once they had the power, they were able to reduce the size of the speaker cabinet with the new ceramic magnets. They could handle the power the new amplifiers could give them, but these types of speakers are much harder to drive. What the main focus was is stability in the bass which they had at this point. it takes quite a bit of amplifier power to drive bass correctly. Bass is very hard to do, even today so they rely heavly on power rather then speaker cabinet configuration to drive bass in these now smaller cabinets. All of this so you dont have a big bulky speaker system sitting in your living room, and it was at this point where the console stereo began to go away

Nothing has changed really, although a modern speaker, and we are talking 1972 and later does have more solid , deep bass then the an average run of the mill speaker of yesteryear. But these new speakers require much more power and the power has to be very stable in order to compete with the better speakers from yesteryear.

Over the years as amplifier power increased, the speaker boxes got smaller and smaller until they got to the point they are at now. Bear in mind, these speakers do not play much louder then the ones of yesteryear, they just have better bass in a small box, again relying heavily on shear output power. hence the Class D amplifier. while no attention is paid to sound quality, it is rather power and nothing more. We have the class D to thank for Boom Cars. The class D we also have to thank for having 40 to 50 watts in our head units, but you know my feelings on the class D amp, although i have no use for them as they are untrue to the source, they do have there place. finally we can have decent power with just a car stereo and a pair of speakers. but i'm getting off track again

Now lets talk voice coil size. Voice coil and magnet size is where your power handling comes from and also the way the speaker " talks " I'm going to use a 12 inch woofer as an example here.

Have you ever noticed some speakers have very small dust caps, some larger and some very large?

This effects the frequencies the speaker can reproduce. and this is the main thing i look for when designing any type of speaker system and will determine weather a 2 or 3 way system will need to be used.

The outside edge of the speaker cone is what reproduces the lower bass, as the cone gets toward the middle is where it begins to climb in frequency, so if you have a 12" woofer with a very small say 1 inch coil, this type of speaker will " talk " it will produce low and mid/midrange frequencies. As this area around the coil gets larger, it effects the speakers ability to " talk " which is generally why a midrange speaker is added. A subwoofer has a very large coil that in some cases is almost half the size of the actual cone itself and they don't " talk " very much at all. With the larger coil, the speaker will appear to have much better bass because they simply cant " talk " and the speaker does not reproduce the upper frequencies, hence the amplifier has an easier time driving the bass. This is also why we use crossover networks to further eliminate frequencies we dont want the particular driver to reproduce.

That and that alone is why i dont particularly care for a so called subwoofer system. having a system that utilizes a subwoofer leaves a hole in the sound which is why, if you read Jim's post on cab upgrades where i ramble pretty much about the same thing there. Jim is using a small subwoofer for bass augmentation only. He has a pair of 6x9's in a box behind his seat and 2 door speakers. The 6x9's in the box behind his seat is where most of the bass and the fullness is going to come from because these speakers are allowed to " talk " and reproduce the lower midrange frequencies that subwoofer speakers simply cant

One thing about speakers i have designed, and have done many, everybody tells me they cant hear the crossover which is what i want, the speaker needs to speak to you in a full natural way.

These speakers that are called subwoofers, that term is used incorrectly now-a-days are actually not true subwoofers, it is just a woofer, nothing more with all mid and high frequencies removed.

A true subwoofer is intended to reproduce frequencies below what woofer can't do, and this is going to be 40 cycles and below. The subwoofer was originally intended for use for people who listen to classical music. In classical music, the bass is produced by a chello or what we know as " a stand up bass" these instruments can go down to 32 cycles which is very hard for a woofer to do. The pipe organ " the speaker killer" the lowest note on a pipe organ is 19 cycles. You need a dedicated speaker to do these. Rock, pop and country music and yes even rap music do not have any frequencies that go into this relm. The absolute lowest note an electric bass guitar can reproduce is around 50 cycles which any woofer will do better then a subwoofer. Believe it or not, rap music dosent even go down this far, it starts to cut off at about 60 cycles which is the easiest frequency for any amplifier to do, its just way over exaggerated.

But like i said somewhere above the narrower the frequency you give the speaker, the louder and more stable it will play which is why people use subs with rap music. if the speaker tries to talk, it will muddy up the bass, eliminating the talking frequencies, the speaker can concentrate on bass frequencies only.

Now lets talk about Brutus and why i want to put a speaker in the bottom of the door. As you know, he has 6x9's in his doors. They sound very very good and have very respectable bass at normal levels, but once you begin to drive harder, the speaker starts to fall apart in a sense because the woofer part is just trying to do to many frequencies. I still have to see exactly what is going to fit in there and do a bunch of math and such, but the speaker that will go in the bottom of the door will be the system's woofer, there will be a coil inline with the speaker to slightly eliminate the very upper frequencies which a large speaker does not do very well. The 6x9's in the door will have a coil across the speaker along with a capacitor in line to eliminate any and all bass frequencies i want removed from the speaker hence turning the 6x9 into a midbass and up. This will give the ability to play a bit louder with more stability and clarity because the 6x9's no longer have to try to reproduce bass

Now lets talk about Big Blue. Lets forget about the 6x9's that are in there right now and concentrate on the 6 inch door speakers. In this case, if you were to use the 6 inch in the doors, along with the 4 1/2's in the headliner, you will get nice full sound with the exception of bass. The door is just to large for a 6 inch speaker. In this case, a small subwoofer speaker would be needed, or what jim did with the 6x9's in the box behind the seat.. Being your doors are already hacked up, i would go with the 6x9's in the doors but in the place of the 6's. Those 6x9's that you have look like they would have some decent bass. if you went in this direction, i dont think you would need anything else. In my situation, i do need a bass speaker, or woofer, or whatever you want to call it. The speakers i am using in the doors are actually Ford speakers from a 95 crown vic. As far as sound quality, believe it or not, they sound better then just about anything out there until you get down on them which is why i need another speaker in the bottom of the door. i dont think you will have this problem with the 6x9's you have

Believe it or not, those factory 6 inch speakers that came in the doors of the trucks, and door speakers in the cars actually make incredible midrange speakers if crossed over correctly.

Sorry for the rambling, but with all my experience and knowledge, none of it does any good if i cant share it.

George - I've read and re-read your post and think I understand.

I'm sitting here wondering if the door pockets could be reversed, meaning that the right one would be used on the left door and vice versa. If so, I think you could easily put a 6x9 in the bottom of the front of the door. But, I'm not sure that the rear of the door pockets would clear the seat. Or that the shape of the pockets would work. Can you check?

As for Big Blue, what I'm thinking about doing is to put a powered "subwoofer" (I agree with you that's a misnomer) under the seat. Something like the Sound Ordinance B-8PTD might do it, and the existing head unit has sub-outs. Then use the front channel to power the 6 1/2's and the rear channel to power the 4" speakers in the Highliner, which would use up the little bit of power that head unit has.

I'm not looking for a "serious" system. I've been there and done that previously. But I want a decent sound in the truck for the long trips I hope to take in it to Colorado and elsewhere to use it. And since I have the Sony system and speakers and the Highliner on its way I'm just looking to augment that setup.

We plan to take the truck out tomorrow for a drive and I hope to have the 6 1/2's in for that test. I'll report back.

 

[86 12 Brutus]

George - I've read and re-read your post and think I understand.

I'm sitting here wondering if the door pockets could be reversed, meaning that the right one would be used on the left door and vice versa. If so, I think you could easily put a 6x9 in the bottom of the front of the door. But, I'm not sure that the rear of the door pockets would clear the seat. Or that the shape of the pockets would work. Can you check?

As for Big Blue, what I'm thinking about doing is to put a powered "subwoofer" (I agree with you that's a misnomer) under the seat. Something like the Sound Ordinance B-8PTD might do it, and the existing head unit has sub-outs. Then use the front channel to power the 6 1/2's and the rear channel to power the 4" speakers in the Highliner, which would use up the little bit of power that head unit has.

I'm not looking for a "serious" system. I've been there and done that previously. But I want a decent sound in the truck for the long trips I hope to take in it to Colorado and elsewhere to use it. And since I have the Sony system and speakers and the Highliner on its way I'm just looking to augment that setup.

We plan to take the truck out tomorrow for a drive and I hope to have the 6 1/2's in for that test. I'll report back.

When i go outside today, iill check on the parts truck if they can be reversed or not and let you know. now you have me thinking too:-)

[ArdWrknTrk]

When i go outside today, iill check on the parts truck if they can be reversed or not and let you know. now you have me thinking too:-)

I honestly don't think there's room between seat hinge and door for me to fit the left pocket on the right, but I can give it a try when I remove the panels.

They seem pretty rectangular so I don't think that's the issue.

[86 12 Brutus]

I honestly don't think there's room between seat hinge and door for me to fit the left pocket on the right, but I can give it a try when I remove the panels.

They seem pretty rectangular so I don't think that's the issue.

- deleted -

[Gary Lewis]

- deleted -

George - Do you have Paypal? If so, email me your Paypal account number and I'll pre-pay you $60 for Dad's radio.