The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

[IDIBronco]

Yep, I think I have had this hose since about a week after I had done the Saginaw swap. I hadn't seen that it hadn't worked for you. Jonathan recommended this to me at about the time of the Saginaw swap when we emailing back and forth. It has been laying in the shop for quite a while. I am trying to decide what I want to do now. At this point I am considering turning a thread out of some good steel on the lathe to turn onto the Delco hose end to make the thread what I need. It is so close to correct it doesn't need to be that robust to cut the threads. Like a made to order thread die. I have to look if any of my "adjustable" dies have 18tpi jaws, that may be the ticket... Back to the shop. If it weren't a hour round trip to run to a place to have something made i would consider it, but I think I can make this work yet.

Well, I didn't document the attempt mainly because I had serious reservations it would work.

However, it looks like it will work. I am not going to lie to anyone and say it screws in like a new fitting would, but i can spin it in about 3 full threads with my fingers before needing a wrench to tighten it up. What I did was gently took the outside diameter down on the belt sander, using the flat platen part of the belt and allowing the nut to spin on the pipe, making very sure to hold the thread surface parallel to the belt surface. I took the O.D. down to .681 inches. Then I attempted to use a 18 tpi set of die jaws clamped in the vise, but that was never going to work. What I ended up doing was just simply using a small 60° triangle file like what you would use on a damaged thread. Just cleaned the threads up making sure to keep the file aligned to the threads. Just worked my way the entire way up the threads a few times and tried it. Only needed to do that about 3 or 4 times and it looked pretty decent.

It screws in and seats the oring now without too much issue. Had I really believed it would have worked out I would have done more pictures. This way the small mismatch of threads will act like self locking threads. I figure I will anti-seize the threads when I assemble it and call it good.

No sense me running to buy another hose, or have something custom made when the threads do not need to be precise for sealing purposes. They strictly need to seat the oring, and resist the hydraulic force trying to push the fitting out. I am not recommending everyone do this method, but for me it will work. If not you will hear about the short coming when this gets fired up and driven again.

Also, the new clutch just arrived so at least some of the parts are starting to show up. I decided to go with a 12 inch upgrade clutch by Luk from rock auto. I have 2 used clutches here I could use, but I think they will be held on hand just in case. One even is a puck style clutch, but I suspect it would be a bit too grabby for pulling a trailer. Now if the firewall reinforcement would just get here...

[Gary Lewis]

Well, I didn't document the attempt mainly because I had serious reservations it would work.

However, it looks like it will work. I am not going to lie to anyone and say it screws in like a new fitting would, but i can spin it in about 3 full threads with my fingers before needing a wrench to tighten it up. What I did was gently took the outside diameter down on the belt sander, using the flat platen part of the belt and allowing the nut to spin on the pipe, making very sure to hold the thread surface parallel to the belt surface. I took the O.D. down to .681 inches. Then I attempted to use a 18 tpi set of die jaws clamped in the vise, but that was never going to work. What I ended up doing was just simply using a small 60° triangle file like what you would use on a damaged thread. Just cleaned the threads up making sure to keep the file aligned to the threads. Just worked my way the entire way up the threads a few times and tried it. Only needed to do that about 3 or 4 times and it looked pretty decent.

It screws in and seats the oring now without too much issue. Had I really believed it would have worked out I would have done more pictures. This way the small mismatch of threads will act like self locking threads. I figure I will anti-seize the threads when I assemble it and call it good.

No sense me running to buy another hose, or have something custom made when the threads do not need to be precise for sealing purposes. They strictly need to seat the oring, and resist the hydraulic force trying to push the fitting out. I am not recommending everyone do this method, but for me it will work. If not you will hear about the short coming when this gets fired up and driven again.

Also, the new clutch just arrived so at least some of the parts are starting to show up. I decided to go with a 12 inch upgrade clutch by Luk from rock auto. I have 2 used clutches here I could use, but I think they will be held on hand just in case. One even is a puck style clutch, but I suspect it would be a bit too grabby for pulling a trailer. Now if the firewall reinforcement would just get here...

I toyed with the same approach on the fitting, and the only deviation would have been that I have an 18 tpi thread file. But you got it working, and you are right - it just needs to hold the o-ring in and resist the force pushing it out, which it will do.

On your new clutch, does the pressure plate bolt to your flywheel? That was the problem I had - the HD clutch came with an HD pressure plate that had a different bolt pattern. So now I have a new flywheel.

[IDIBronco]

I toyed with the same approach on the fitting, and the only deviation would have been that I have an 18 tpi thread file. But you got it working, and you are right - it just needs to hold the o-ring in and resist the force pushing it out, which it will do.

On your new clutch, does the pressure plate bolt to your flywheel? That was the problem I had - the HD clutch came with an HD pressure plate that had a different bolt pattern. So now I have a new flywheel.

Gary,

You asked, so I decided to run out and verify. Now worried I had made a mistake in what I ordered.

It bolted right up, the holes lined up perfect.

Now with a sense of relief that my purchase was correct I went ahead and got a few more information pictures...

The clutch disc was claimed to be a 12 inch upgrade from the stock 11 inch disc, while the fine print as well as the actual measurement show the disc is 11 7/8".

The progress is slow today, but the firewall reinforcement is alleged to be here Tuesday now according to tracking. So perhaps I will shift focus and start removing parts under the bronco weather permitting tomorrow (drive shafts, linkages, drain fluids, remove the transfer case, etc.). It really depends on how much rain we get and how wet my area of yard is to work in. I can always open the transmission (t19) up in case of inclement weather to clean and change fluids. I haven't decided if I will put a rebuild kit in it yet or not. At the moment I am leaning towards not since I have a spare t19. If this one starts to give me issues (it is out of a low mileage, under 70,000 actual miles, local farm truck) I can order the kit for the backup and rebuild it and have it ready to change out when the need arises. The only issue is this is the 5.11:1 version (1983 460 truck) of a T19, the backup is a true idi version with the 4:1 ratio low gear. Jonathan thinks the skip in the 3 to 4 gear change might be unpleasant. I can compare it to the f350 when I get it together. The f350 weighs in at 7700 lbs empty. The bronco last check with tools and parts I have been hauling around was 5950 lbs. Even with the difference in gearing this thing should feel like a sports car (comparatively).

 

[Gary Lewis]

Gary,

You asked, so I decided to run out and verify. Now worried I had made a mistake in what I ordered.

It bolted right up, the holes lined up perfect.

Now with a sense of relief that my purchase was correct I went ahead and got a few more information pictures...

The clutch disc was claimed to be a 12 inch upgrade from the stock 11 inch disc, while the fine print as well as the actual measurement show the disc is 11 7/8".

The progress is slow today, but the firewall reinforcement is alleged to be here Tuesday now according to tracking. So perhaps I will shift focus and start removing parts under the bronco weather permitting tomorrow (drive shafts, linkages, drain fluids, remove the transfer case, etc.). It really depends on how much rain we get and how wet my area of yard is to work in. I can always open the transmission (t19) up in case of inclement weather to clean and change fluids. I haven't decided if I will put a rebuild kit in it yet or not. At the moment I am leaning towards not since I have a spare t19. If this one starts to give me issues (it is out of a low mileage, under 70,000 actual miles, local farm truck) I can order the kit for the backup and rebuild it and have it ready to change out when the need arises. The only issue is this is the 5.11:1 version (1983 460 truck) of a T19, the backup is a true idi version with the 4:1 ratio low gear. Jonathan thinks the skip in the 3 to 4 gear change might be unpleasant. I can compare it to the f350 when I get it together. The f350 weighs in at 7700 lbs empty. The bronco last check with tools and parts I have been hauling around was 5950 lbs. Even with the difference in gearing this thing should feel like a sports car (comparatively).

Glad your clutch fits!

On the gear ratios, Big Blue had the 5.11 1st gear version of the T-19 and 3rd was too low. It wasn't useful on the road. Once you'd dropped into 4th you really didn't want to have to go back to 3rd as the engine would be wound up tight at highway speeds. That was one of the reasons I wanted the ZF5.

However, with the 460 there was little need to drop back to 3rd, even pulling a trailer. But still.....

[IDIBronco]

Glad your clutch fits!

On the gear ratios, Big Blue had the 5.11 1st gear version of the T-19 and 3rd was too low. It wasn't useful on the road. Once you'd dropped into 4th you really didn't want to have to go back to 3rd as the engine would be wound up tight at highway speeds. That was one of the reasons I wanted the ZF5.

However, with the 460 there was little need to drop back to 3rd, even pulling a trailer. But still.....

That is the reason I am planning to avoid spending the time amd effort on the rebuild on the 5.11 t19. I figure I will end up running the other transmission as soon as I can, or saving up to try to add one of those fancy torque splitting overdrives...

Provided I can possibly work with the wheelbase and short rear shaft. MUCH more research is needed before I pony up the coin for that plan.

[IDIBronco]

Glad your clutch fits!

On the gear ratios, Big Blue had the 5.11 1st gear version of the T-19 and 3rd was too low. It wasn't useful on the road. Once you'd dropped into 4th you really didn't want to have to go back to 3rd as the engine would be wound up tight at highway speeds. That was one of the reasons I wanted the ZF5.

However, with the 460 there was little need to drop back to 3rd, even pulling a trailer. But still.....

Did BB have 3.55 gears with the 5.11?

[Gary Lewis]

Did BB have 3.55 gears with the 5.11?

Yep, BB has 3.55 gears. And that T-19 with 5.11 gears. And 33" tires. The calculator page (Documentation/Driveline/Calculator) says with the T-19 the engine was spinning 4227 RPM @ 65 MPH in 3rd. But with the ZF5 it'll only be spinning 3802.

And, I get the 5.72 1st gear and .76 5th gear.

[IDIBronco]

Yep, BB has 3.55 gears. And that T-19 with 5.11 gears. And 33" tires. The calculator page (Documentation/Driveline/Calculator) says with the T-19 the engine was spinning 4227 RPM @ 65 MPH in 3rd. But with the ZF5 it'll only be spinning 3802.

And, I get the 5.72 1st gear and .76 5th gear.

I spent some time crunching numbers on the percent change in gearing on different arrangements of zf/T19/T19 w/ torque splitter.

I will probably make a quick spreadsheet to more logically show the information. Just pretty neat to see the comparisons side by side.

I was able to run and get the flywheel ground locally this morning.

A very valuable trip. The price was pretty great, and the information I got about installing the pto onto the transmission and shimming it was invaluable to me. The person working on transmissions there just started a conversation while I waited and I thought to ask as I knew it would be regular everyday information for him. I even ended I headed home with the correct shimming gaskets all for cheaper then the local parts house could get it done in 3 days... Maybe an hour and a half invested to drive there and wait.

A very good investment indeed.

Allegedly the firewall reinforcement is out for delivery a day early so perhaps I can get that installed this afternoon. If everything would go just right, I could get the pedals, brakes, steering column, interior wiring (minus clutch switch), hydroboost, and power steering all buttoned up before I give it up today.

That's a lot that has to happen without issue though. We will see how early the reinforcement gets here. I do not really want to start removing the parts underneath until I have all of this back together. Make it more like a clutch change then a swap at that point. This is all the tedious stuff in my opinion, plus I am still strongly leaning on hauling this up to a friends to use a lift for the work underneath.

Updates hopefully to follow through the day...

[FuzzFace2]

I spent some time crunching numbers on the percent change in gearing on different arrangements of zf/T19/T19 w/ torque splitter.

I will probably make a quick spreadsheet to more logically show the information. Just pretty neat to see the comparisons side by side.

I was able to run and get the flywheel ground locally this morning.

A very valuable trip. The price was pretty great, and the information I got about installing the pto onto the transmission and shimming it was invaluable to me. The person working on transmissions there just started a conversation while I waited and I thought to ask as I knew it would be regular everyday information for him. I even ended I headed home with the correct shimming gaskets all for cheaper then the local parts house could get it done in 3 days... Maybe an hour and a half invested to drive there and wait.

A very good investment indeed.

Allegedly the firewall reinforcement is out for delivery a day early so perhaps I can get that installed this afternoon. If everything would go just right, I could get the pedals, brakes, steering column, interior wiring (minus clutch switch), hydroboost, and power steering all buttoned up before I give it up today.

That's a lot that has to happen without issue though. We will see how early the reinforcement gets here. I do not really want to start removing the parts underneath until I have all of this back together. Make it more like a clutch change then a swap at that point. This is all the tedious stuff in my opinion, plus I am still strongly leaning on hauling this up to a friends to use a lift for the work underneath.

Updates hopefully to follow through the day...

I ran the numbers many times between the T18, ZF if I could find one, NP435 and the TQ Splitter.

When I found the NP435 and having a lower 2nd gear, dose not feel it, than the T18 that was the way to go with the over drive.

I could not find a ZF and with the AA OD ($1600) and drive shaft ($330) I am under $2000.

I don't think you could find a ZF and all the parts (I have linkage clutch) for $2000.

I would like to know how many use the syncro granny in the T19?

Most of the time you are using it to take off from a stop so would not need the syncro granny.

With the little bit of driving I have done since the OD install if I was pulling heavy loads most of the time I would go with a lower (higher number) rear gear over the 2.75 I have now, may be a 3.25 or 3.55?

I have not run them numbers as I don't plan on pulling heavy loads most of the time LOL.

I will have to go back thru was this a 4x4 and what does the PTO work?

was PTO on the C6 and how was it installed?

Dave ----

edit: I see it is a 4x4 Bronco did it have a PTO and for what?

[Gary Lewis]

I spent some time crunching numbers on the percent change in gearing on different arrangements of zf/T19/T19 w/ torque splitter.

I will probably make a quick spreadsheet to more logically show the information. Just pretty neat to see the comparisons side by side.

I was able to run and get the flywheel ground locally this morning.

A very valuable trip. The price was pretty great, and the information I got about installing the pto onto the transmission and shimming it was invaluable to me. The person working on transmissions there just started a conversation while I waited and I thought to ask as I knew it would be regular everyday information for him. I even ended I headed home with the correct shimming gaskets all for cheaper then the local parts house could get it done in 3 days... Maybe an hour and a half invested to drive there and wait.

A very good investment indeed.

Allegedly the firewall reinforcement is out for delivery a day early so perhaps I can get that installed this afternoon. If everything would go just right, I could get the pedals, brakes, steering column, interior wiring (minus clutch switch), hydroboost, and power steering all buttoned up before I give it up today.

That's a lot that has to happen without issue though. We will see how early the reinforcement gets here. I do not really want to start removing the parts underneath until I have all of this back together. Make it more like a clutch change then a swap at that point. This is all the tedious stuff in my opinion, plus I am still strongly leaning on hauling this up to a friends to use a lift for the work underneath.

Updates hopefully to follow through the day...

Why make a spreadsheet when we have one that should do it nicely: Documentation/Driveline/Calculators. There is a place up top where you can input several variable, including OD ratio. The transmission ratios are already in it.

And, if you need something else please tell me. The Overall Gear Ratio section was put there for Dave if I remember correctly, so we can tune and tweak it to make it do what we need.