ArdWrknTrk Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Gary, I have good enough pictures of both pulleys that I can read the number on them (E7UA3D673FB). They are the same between the 351 and the 460. The straight six is way different in the undesirable direction. The common Chevy pulley is also worse, and the diameter is larger which will complicate finding a belt that would work. Looking at the C2 pulley I would say that thinning out the hub that much is playing with fire. The notch that the puller sits in might not be strong enough to pull it back off once you press it on. Turning down the pump shaft would probably work, but that is highly precision machine work and won’t be cheap. Then you won’t have an off the shelf pump if/when it needs replaced. Nothing about this is ideal, so I guess I have to pick my poison as far as which evil I want to contend with. This may sound crazy. Consider welding an extension 'collar' on the back of the Saginaw pulley? You wouldn't be able to just set it flush with the shaft but it would solve the concern of not being deep enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 Time for an update on the Saginaw situation now that I have measurements from a pulley off of a 1989 351W Econoline. The results are not as favorable as I would like, but I still think I have options to make this work. I will give the result first and then walk through the math. If I were to be able to mount the two forward Saginaw bolt holes flush with the existing inside bracket bosses for the C2, (and I pressed the pulley hub flush with the pump shaft tip) the belt plane would be 0.0125” forward of the others. (Let’s just call it zero given the measurement techniques). This does not jive with the thread that talks about having to space the whole pump 5/8” back for pulley alignment. Maybe there is a better pulley to be had (with less rear offset that would allow for a spacer/adapter) but I have not found one yet… the take home point is I have no space for an adapter like the PSC horseshoe unless I don’t press the pulley all the way on. The math is as follows: Let’s start with the pumps. I measured from the shaft tip to the bolt mounting faces. I measured the forward pair on the Saginaw: C2: 2.350” Sag: 2.800” Next I measured the pulley bore depth, from the tip to the inside rim of the hub: C2: 0.750” Sag: 1.000” Next I measured the offset from the rear pulley face to the inside rim of the hub: C2: 0.500” Sag: 0.750” I noticed that with both pulleys flat on their backs, the plane of the belt ribs did not match. The Saginaw has a thinner rim and sets the belt plane 0.0625” closer to the pump. The thickness of the bracket measured at the bosses for the C2 bolts is 0.350” and prior to removal the space between the pulley and the bracket face measured 0.750”. So for the C2 the math is 2.350” mounting face to shaft tip, minus 0.750” bore depth minus 0.500” offset, minus 0.350” bracket thickness = 0.750” space between the pulley and bracket. For the Saginaw 2.800” mounting face to shaft tip minus 1.000” bore depth minus 0.750” offset, minus 0.350” bracket thickness plus 0.0625” (for the different rim thickness) = 0.7625” Note: the Saginaw pump body mounting bolt holes are M10-1.5 With a bore depth of 1.00” I could potentially get away with not fully seating the pulley. So one option would be to try to fashion an adapter (1/4” thick?) that would fit between the pump and the bracket. The bracket would have to mount to the pump with counter sunk cone headed Allen bolts, and the adapter would have to be tapped to accept bolts through the three C2 holes in the bracket. The bolts would have to be very short and secured with thread locker. Another option would be to put a steel plate on the outside of the bracket (between the pulley and the bracket face) and use counter sunk Allen bolts to go all the way through into the pump body. The bracket would be sandwiched in between. The tricky part would be fastening the steel plate to the bracket, since there might not be room for fasteners on the back side where the C2 holes are. But if necessary new holes could be drilled. I feel that with this design one would have to use exact spacers between the pump and the steel plate to ensure that the shaft stayed perpendicular to the belt plane. I am open to whatever design ideas and input you may have. Gary, this kind of comes full circle to your original comment about welding in a piece of aluminum plate. My concerns are still strength since the bracket is so thin, combined with the fact that there is essentially zero room to add any kind of reinforcement. It occurs to me that getting the mounting plane exactly right may be difficult. This is potentially the cleanest solution, but also the furthest from my comfort zone as far as what I have experience doing. I will close with one last stray picture that I took of my power steering fluid cooler that I pulled from a 1999 F250 Super Duty. The C2 pulley does have 1/4” less offset to the rear, but it also has 1/4” less bore length. So to my thinking mounting the Saginaw pulley 3/4” onto the shaft would produce the identical result. Just a thought. Not ideal, but one way to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 This may sound crazy. Consider welding an extension 'collar' on the back of the Saginaw pulley? You wouldn't be able to just set it flush with the shaft but it would solve the concern of not being deep enough. Jim - I'm not sure I understand. I think you are suggesting welding a piece to the hub of the Saginaw pulley to move the whole pulley forward. Right? That could work. A piece of material could be welded to the back of the pulley and then chucked in the lathe and bored out to match the original bore. Good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 The C2 pulley does have 1/4” less offset to the rear, but it also has 1/4” less bore length. So to my thinking mounting the Saginaw pulley 3/4” onto the shaft would produce the identical result. Just a thought. Not ideal, but one way to look at it. That's true, Jonathan. And, the Sag has a larger shaft as well. So perhaps the extra space could be done that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Jim - I'm not sure I understand. I think you are suggesting welding a piece to the hub of the Saginaw pulley to move the whole pulley forward. Right? That could work. A piece of material could be welded to the back of the pulley and then chucked in the lathe and bored out to match the original bore. Good idea! You *could* use the hub of a second Saginaw pulley, vee them both, and stack them on a shaft for welding. Maybe brass or bronze 3/4 stock so there's no way for the pulley to accidentally get welded to the shaft? Make the adapter plate as thick as you need, and part off the excess hub? Leave it long enough that it bottoms and ream the back of the extension so there's not a huge amount of excess interference fit friction? Then getting the pulley in plane wouldn't be a guessing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 You *could* use the hub of a second Saginaw pulley, vee them both, and stack them on a shaft for welding. Maybe brass or bronze 3/4 stock so there's no way for the pulley to accidentally get welded to the shaft? Make the adapter plate as thick as you need, and part off the excess hub? Leave it long enough that it bottoms and ream the back of the extension so there's not a huge amount of excess interference fit friction? Then getting the pulley in plane wouldn't be a guessing game. Good thinking, Jim. I like all of those ideas. My only concern is how much room or accessibility there is on the back of the pulley to do the welding. Unfortunately I've packed my pulleys away. Jonathan - Can you post a pic of the back of your Sag pulley? Maybe from an angle to see the room available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Good thinking, Jim. I like all of those ideas. My only concern is how much room or accessibility there is on the back of the pulley to do the welding. Unfortunately I've packed my pulleys away. Jonathan - Can you post a pic of the back of your Sag pulley? Maybe from an angle to see the room available? Ok, one item I see, the C2 serpentine pulley I have is plastic with a metal hub, the Sag one is all metal. Next week I will try to get all the Sag stuff (Chrysler included) and get measurements ans pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Ok, one item I see, the C2 serpentine pulley I have is plastic with a metal hub, the Sag one is all metal. Next week I will try to get all the Sag stuff (Chrysler included) and get measurements ans pictures. That would help to know what other options are. Thanks, Bill. But, welding to the C2 pulley would be easier than to the Sag. The plastic would melt off and you'd have clear access to the hub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 Good thinking, Jim. I like all of those ideas. My only concern is how much room or accessibility there is on the back of the pulley to do the welding. Unfortunately I've packed my pulleys away. Jonathan - Can you post a pic of the back of your Sag pulley? Maybe from an angle to see the room available? Here is a pic I took while measuring the rear offset of the Saginaw pulley. The access is not impossible, but not great either... The IDI pulley for the C2 is metal, not plastic. Not that it matters since it can't be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Here is a pic I took while measuring the rear offset of the Saginaw pulley. The access is not impossible, but not great either... The IDI pulley for the C2 is metal, not plastic. Not that it matters since it can't be used. Scott will be over in a few minutes and I'll ask him what he thinks about welding that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts