85lebaront2 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Gary, that is good news for me and looks promising as far as minimal work to make everything line up. Thanks for taking the time to do that! Bill, Gary's bracket came from a 1990 E350 chassis vehicle. Edit: are you talking about the amount of wrap causing the side loading? This is the front of the idi: Not as bad as that French thing, it has right at 180° wrap, and when the steering is against the stop it still tries the slip the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Not as bad as that French thing, it has right at 180° wrap, and when the steering is against the stop it still tries the slip the belt. I'm rethinking going with a Chevy reservoir unless it has the stud on the back of it for the brace. Look at the bottom mount on the Sag bracket - in the yellow circle. Yup, the tip has been welded back on. And Huck's bracket was broken there as well. Granted it is a C2, but the design is pretty much the same. Perhaps there's a problem w/o the brace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 I'm rethinking going with a Chevy reservoir unless it has the stud on the back of it for the brace. Look at the bottom mount on the Sag bracket - in the yellow circle. Yup, the tip has been welded back on. And Huck's bracket was broken there as well. Granted it is a C2, but the design is pretty much the same. Perhaps there's a problem w/o the brace? I would think the problem without a brace would show up at the mounting holes for the pump itself, but it's hard to say what would happen. In your case Gary, I would think that a second reservoir return would be cleaner and simpler than a remote reservoir (which would still need a second return added to it?). In my case it ~may save me from having to hack the bracket, but I'm looking at the nipple at the top of the can and wondering if I would have to cut the bracket anyway to run the hose to it... there might be room if I welded in a 90*? The other reason some might want a remote reservoir is additional capacity and cooling, but I just don't think that's necessary. I pulled hydroboosts from 1989, 1993, and 1996 F450 F-Supetduty trucks and they were all engineered with a regular C2 pump and only the "loop" down by the crossmember for cooling. I think adding a filter and a finned cooler because for off road type driving should be plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I'm rethinking going with a Chevy reservoir unless it has the stud on the back of it for the brace. Look at the bottom mount on the Sag bracket - in the yellow circle. Yup, the tip has been welded back on. And Huck's bracket was broken there as well. Granted it is a C2, but the design is pretty much the same. Perhaps there's a problem w/o the brace? Gary, I would say they were both probably broken by some of my friends, Hamm Phist, Jack Legg and Shayde Tri (he's Vietnamese). If you aren't familiar with these engines and trying to either do things in a hurry (like R&R the left head in situ as the Brits say) I can see how that little tab could be broken easily. There are exactly 5 fasteners on that casting to mount it to the engine, 4 are 7/16-14 bolts into the head, the other is a single 3/8" bolt into the water pump near the inlet. Another possibility is someone who should never have touched it (Vernon's "mechanic" comes to mind) left the separator plate behind the water pump out, it would very likely snap that thin ear when the bolt was tightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Gary, I would say they were both probably broken by some of my friends, Hamm Phist, Jack Legg and Shayde Tri (he's Vietnamese). If you aren't familiar with these engines and trying to either do things in a hurry (like R&R the left head in situ as the Brits say) I can see how that little tab could be broken easily. There are exactly 5 fasteners on that casting to mount it to the engine, 4 are 7/16-14 bolts into the head, the other is a single 3/8" bolt into the water pump near the inlet. Another possibility is someone who should never have touched it (Vernon's "mechanic" comes to mind) left the separator plate behind the water pump out, it would very likely snap that thin ear when the bolt was tightened. As I think about it I agree with Bill - the problem with breaking the casting is probably mis-alignment between the bracket and the water pump. With those 4 big bolts above into the block and head nothing is going to give up there. And since it is a casting, there's no flex. Something has to give, and the "give" is at the end of that tab. So, maybe there isn't a problem w/o the support bracket. But I agree with you, Jonathan, that a second return should be pretty simple. However, I would rather braze one in than weld it as I can do a water-tight brazing job but I'm not sure I can weld it that well. I'm sure you could braze in a 90 degree fitting. I also agree that a filter and a cooler should be adequate w/o the remote reservoir. I wouldn't mind having another of the 460 tranny coolers like Bill posted the pic of recently. It would look right at home on the radiator support, so if you run across one in your salvage runs..... Bill - It easily could have been Vernon's "mechanic". The one that didn't put in the valve cover gaskets, left the exhaust against the frame, and ran the fuel lines w/in an inch of the headers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 As I think about it I agree with Bill - the problem with breaking the casting is probably mis-alignment between the bracket and the water pump. With those 4 big bolts above into the block and head nothing is going to give up there. And since it is a casting, there's no flex. Something has to give, and the "give" is at the end of that tab. So, maybe there isn't a problem w/o the support bracket. But I agree with you, Jonathan, that a second return should be pretty simple. However, I would rather braze one in than weld it as I can do a water-tight brazing job but I'm not sure I can weld it that well. I'm sure you could braze in a 90 degree fitting. I also agree that a filter and a cooler should be adequate w/o the remote reservoir. I wouldn't mind having another of the 460 tranny coolers like Bill posted the pic of recently. It would look right at home on the radiator support, so if you run across one in your salvage runs..... Bill - It easily could have been Vernon's "mechanic". The one that didn't put in the valve cover gaskets, left the exhaust against the frame, and ran the fuel lines w/in an inch of the headers. Ok, it looks like Bill wins the prize. And, having test-fit the brackets on Huck's engine I'm now quite comfortable that the problem is not an un-supported power steering pump but a "mechanic" that should be un-supported. Here's Huck's original C2 bracket installed - without the tip, which is long gone: And here's the unbroken C2 bracket that Jim sent me off the 1995 F450. However, these two brackets have the same ID # on them, so they are the same. This distance is .125", and that cast bracket isn't going to flex anywhere near that much, so it'll break right at the corner where all the forces get concentrated. Bill said that the guy probably left off the backing plate on the water pump. Anyone see a backing plate here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Ok, it looks like Bill wins the prize. And, having test-fit the brackets on Huck's engine I'm now quite comfortable that the problem is not an un-supported power steering pump but a "mechanic" that should be un-supported. Here's Huck's original C2 bracket installed - without the tip, which is long gone: And here's the unbroken C2 bracket that Jim sent me off the 1995 F450. However, these two brackets have the same ID # on them, so they are the same. This distance is .125", and that cast bracket isn't going to flex anywhere near that much, so it'll break right at the corner where all the forces get concentrated. Bill said that the guy probably left off the backing plate on the water pump. Anyone see a backing plate here? Idk how you can run a 460 *without* a backing plate. I got a new one when I changed my water pump because it's not worth going through that *again* for $30. There is nothing for the impeller to push against. Not to mention other open cavities in the timing case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Idk how you can run a 460 *without* a backing plate. I got a new one when I changed my water pump because it's not worth going through that *again* for $30. There is nothing for the impeller to push against. Not to mention other open cavities in the timing case. I was wondering the same thing. Yup, they did it: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I was wondering the same thing. Yup, they did it: Well, the thickness of the plate and the *other* gasket on the other side of it explains the 'extra' 1/8".... Where is the facepalm emoji???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I was wondering the same thing. Yup, they did it: I wonder how they got it to hold water, if you look at the timing cover there is a hole through into the inside of the block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts