Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

[Gary Lewis]

I have what looks like the exact same kit from Northern Tool.

I got my 460 Saginaw power steering pump & bracket today - THANK YOU, JONATHAN!

So I used the pulley remover and unbolted the pump to compare the brackets. I took a number of measurements:

• Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

• Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,

  but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

• Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

• Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,

  but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

• Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.

  Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

One thing I didn't measure and should have is the plane of the mounting points vs the front of the block.

Here's the C2 bracket:

Here's the Saginaw bracket:

And, there are differences in the pulleys themselves. Here's a side view:

Here's another view:

 

[Ford F834]

I got my 460 Saginaw power steering pump & bracket today - THANK YOU, JONATHAN!

So I used the pulley remover and unbolted the pump to compare the brackets. I took a number of measurements:

• Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

• Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,

  but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

• Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

• Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,

  but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

• Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.

  Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

One thing I didn't measure and should have is the plane of the mounting points vs the front of the block.

Here's the C2 bracket:

Here's the Saginaw bracket:

And, there are differences in the pulleys themselves. Here's a side view:

Here's another view:

You are very welcome for the bracket Gary! I'm glad I found one and could help out.

I really appreciate the measurements and comparisons, this gives me a good idea of what to look at as far as spacing for the Saginaw. If you can figure out if there is any difference in the block to pump mounting face distance that would be helpful.

If I assume that the block distances are equal, then my math says if you went to mount the Saginaw in the C2 bracket it would have to be spaced aft by 0.222". PSC does not give a thickness soecification on the horseshoe bracket but I bet it is close to that. I think one could "get there" by shimming further aft with washers or moving the pulley forward by not seating it all the way on... ~IF the block to mounting face distance is the same...

Anyway, thanks for the good information for me... I am definitely going to need a pump and the corresponding pulley. Time to get a puller and head to the junkyard to look for some serpentine Ford vans!

[Ford F834]

I got my 460 Saginaw power steering pump & bracket today - THANK YOU, JONATHAN!

So I used the pulley remover and unbolted the pump to compare the brackets. I took a number of measurements:

• Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

• Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,

  but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

• Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

• Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,

  but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

• Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.

  Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

One thing I didn't measure and should have is the plane of the mounting points vs the front of the block.

Here's the C2 bracket:

Here's the Saginaw bracket:

And, there are differences in the pulleys themselves. Here's a side view:

Here's another view:

Gary, was the package damaged in shipment? It kind of looks like the edge of the reservoir canister is bent and the pointed "ear" on the bracket seems like it may have been hit?

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, was the package damaged in shipment? It kind of looks like the edge of the reservoir canister is bent and the pointed "ear" on the bracket seems like it may have been hit?

Yes, on both of those, but no biggee. I'm thinking the reservoir can easily be bent back - if I don't find a dual return one.

And the point is broken off. But surely that's not critical. What does it do? If needed it can be tack-welded back on.

[Ford F834]

Yes, on both of those, but no biggee. I'm thinking the reservoir can easily be bent back - if I don't find a dual return one.

And the point is broken off. But surely that's not critical. What does it do? If needed it can be tack-welded back on.

Wow. I am very sorry about the damage Gary. That was a heavy part and I should have surrounded it with more packaging and put it in a larger box. That is a shame. However, I have no idea what that pointed ear is for, and I doubt it will be missed. Perhaps I should look at the Chevy section to see if I can find you a hydroboost reservoir?

[Gary Lewis]

Wow. I am very sorry about the damage Gary. That was a heavy part and I should have surrounded it with more packaging and put it in a larger box. That is a shame. However, I have no idea what that pointed ear is for, and I doubt it will be missed. Perhaps I should look at the Chevy section to see if I can find you a hydroboost reservoir?

Don't worry about it - I'm not. But, if you will watch for a dual-return reservoir I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I can modify this one as shown in that link, but I'm not sure I want to do that.

And, I'm not in a hurry. This year is Dad's truck and thinking through what to do for Big Blue. His turn is next year.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I got my 460 Saginaw power steering pump & bracket today - THANK YOU, JONATHAN!

So I used the pulley remover and unbolted the pump to compare the brackets. I took a number of measurements:

• Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

• Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,

  but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

• Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

• Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,

  but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

• Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.

  Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

One thing I didn't measure and should have is the plane of the mounting points vs the front of the block.

Here's the C2 bracket:

Here's the Saginaw bracket:

And, there are differences in the pulleys themselves. Here's a side view:

Here's another view:

One thing to note, Gary, Is that the mount (boss?) that bolts to the front of the DS cylinder head is different for a C2 or Saginaw pump... at least with v-belt pumps.

I'd imagine the waterpump mounting points did not change depth, but the cylinder head bracket is 1/2" or more taller iirc.

I took side by side pictures back in '12 when i got mine from Bill's junkyard guy Donnie Meddlin(?)

[Gary Lewis]

One thing to note, Gary, Is that the mount (boss?) that bolts to the front of the DS cylinder head is different for a C2 or Saginaw pump... at least with v-belt pumps.

I'd imagine the waterpump mounting points did not change depth, but the cylinder head bracket is 1/2" or more taller iirc.

I took side by side pictures back in '12 when i got mine from Bill's junkyard guy Donnie Meddlin(?)

Jim - That's one of the questions. I know the bolts stayed the same, but lots of dimensions could have changed.

My plan is to run both of these parts through the parts washer to get them presentable, and then clamp them to the table on the mill just as they would bolt to the cylinder heads. Then I can measure from the table to the mounting face of the bracket and know that it is a good measurement.

Sound like a reasonable plan?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - That's one of the questions. I know the bolts stayed the same, but lots of dimensions could have changed.

My plan is to run both of these parts through the parts washer to get them presentable, and then clamp them to the table on the mill just as they would bolt to the cylinder heads. Then I can measure from the table to the mounting face of the bracket and know that it is a good measurement.

Sound like a reasonable plan?

I was suggesting you work from the part that bolts to the water pump and determine the height difference in the boss bolted to the head.

Pretty sure I pictured the two side by side on FTE back then.

Iirc the threaded holes on EFI heads are larger than carbureted ones. (3/8-16 V 5/16-18??)

 

[Gary Lewis]

I was suggesting you work from the part that bolts to the water pump and determine the height difference in the boss bolted to the head.

Pretty sure I pictured the two side by side on FTE back then.

Iirc the threaded holes on EFI heads are larger than carbureted ones. (3/8-16 V 5/16-18??)

But, even if there is no height difference in the part that bolts to the head, we don't know that there aren't other differences. Like a slight difference in an angle or other dimension that makes the mounting point for the power steering pump different. Right?

So, if we assume that the head is a good reference point, then why not measure from the head mounting point to the power steering pump mounting point?

I know you have something in mind, but I'm missing it. Sorry!