Ford F834 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Gary and I have been having an e-mail discussion about Saginaw pump options for my IDI. For most engines the best solution is to find the Econoline van counterpart in the junkyard and grab the bracket and pump. Unfortunately, when the 7.3 IDI went to a serpentine drive belt system in 1992.5, even the vans had C2 Ford pumps. The bracket I want does not exist. So if I want to run a Saginaw pump I have basically three options: -Back convert my 1994 7.3 IDIT to V belts (and source a 83-91 diesel van pump bracket) -Source an A1 Cardone 20-6244 Saginaw pump that bolts straight into a C2 bracket (these have been discontinued for 10 years or so, and your chances of finding one are about like winning the lottery). -Modify the IDI bracket and make a different Saginaw pump fit it. This is what Gary and I have been discussing. I believe the best starting point for this is the $30 PSC mount adapter. http://www.pscmotorsports.com/ford-5-0-saginaw-pump-adapter-bracket.html This horseshoe shaped piece is similar to what made the Cardone 20-6244 pump a direct bolt-in. The problem is the Cardone had other tricks up its sleeve to make it a direct swap. The adapter piece was thick, which set the filler neck back and gave it clearance for serpentine brackets. The pump shaft therefore had to be longer. One cannot just buy the adapter, slap it on a similar Saginaw pump and expect it to work like the Cardone. PSC says the adapter is only for use with one of its remote reservoir systems, but they are priced at $435-$520 which I cannot stomach. Gary brought up that Astro vans used remote reservoir systems that I might be able score in the bone yard. However, I found an article where a guy used an 80-96 Ford van pump (pump only/remote reservoir can from PSC) and an Astro van reservoir. At low speed it was fine, but out on the road and it made noise. The reservoir looks plenty large to me, but he said the problem was because the reservoir was not big enough. He ended up replacing it with a quite expensive reservoir from PSC. This makes me a little leery of cobbling together a remote reservoir: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/index.php?threads/saginaw-power-steering-pump-conversion-journey.417083/ At this point in my research I started looking at the differences in the Ford brackets themselves. I am starting to think that cutting away part of the bracket to accommodate the Saginaw reservoir might not be the end of the world. It is basically what Ford did, except they cast it that way instead of using a saw. Gary, I know my photo is a poor angle but look at the Saginaw bracket I just sent you compared to its C2 version: Now take a look at the 7.3 IDI bracket. It has a wall all the way around the steering pump. It seems to me that notching it out for a “necked” style Saginaw wouldn't weaken it all that much: Possible pump- Cardone 20-6999 This need is still a ways off, but the more of these sticky details I work out in advance the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 One thing I saw mentioned in the old Saginaw swap threads was that Cardone's pump had a different shaft diameter (as well as length) to allow it to use the Ford pulley. I don't know this from personal experience, and maybe it only applies to V-belts, but it is something to be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 One thing I saw mentioned in the old Saginaw swap threads was that Cardone's pump had a different shaft diameter (as well as length) to allow it to use the Ford pulley. I don't know this from personal experience, and maybe it only applies to V-belts, but it is something to be aware of. Jonathan - The info about the Saginaw's shaft or nose being 5/8" longer than a C2 is significant here. I'm guessing that the Cardone 20-6244 had about that much thickness to the adapter on the shortest hole. For the others as we've discussed this, that does two things. First, it puts the pulley in the proper alignment, which others have done with all sorts of spacers. Second, it gets the pump back where the interference between the body and the bracket are less. So my thinking now is that we could take a 5/8" chunk of steel and make a bracket. It would probably be shaped much like the PSC adapter, and it would have tapped holes in the front that match the C2's pattern to bolt it into the standard Ford bracket. And it would have countersunk holes that allow it to be bolted to the Saginaw pump. But, the Sag's front isn't even so we'll still have to have some spacers. As for cutting on the IDI's bracket, the 460 Sag bracket is supposed to get here on Friday, and again thank you, so I'll look it over and post pics of it as opposed to the 460 C2 bracket that Jim got me - thanks again, Jim. That will let us compare to your IDI bracket. But at first blush it doesn't look like there's a problem with cutting down the lip or wall. Jim - Thanks, that's something to watch out for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 One thing I saw mentioned in the old Saginaw swap threads was that Cardone's pump had a different shaft diameter (as well as length) to allow it to use the Ford pulley. I don't know this from personal experience, and maybe it only applies to V-belts, but it is something to be aware of. Jim, thank you for that information. I had not read about the shaft diameter problem. That is good to know. I might have to remove slightly more of the bracket, but I'm thinking maybe getting the pump and pulley from a serpentine Ford van with the ham can reservoir may be the way to go... I am confused about the shaft length however... the article where the guy made his own adapter sandwich stated that the pump had to be spaced back 5/8" to put the pulley in the right place, but the 6244 Cardone has a lot more shaft sticking out past the bracket than the similar looking 6999 pump with no bracket. In the thread with the Astro van remote reservoir, the guy used the PSC horseshoe and said the shaft wasn't long enough. (It was 80-96 Ford van pump). He said the shaft went a little more than half way through. So which is it? Too long or too short? The F550 article gives no specific info, but Tom Lee's adapter looks a little thicker than the PSC horseshoe and there is no mention of shimming it. Lee knows his pumps and exactly which model to use. I know he would not have accepted a pulley being not all the way seated. My thinking is that I can get the adapter for $30, and a junkyard pump with the pulley for $28+$5 core. If it does not work I can even return it for credit. $63 invested is an amount I can live with. I need to buy the pulley tool, but that is something I should have anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Jim, thank you for that information. I had not read about the shaft diameter problem. That is good to know. I might have to remove slightly more of the bracket, but I'm thinking maybe getting the pump and pulley from a serpentine Ford van with the ham can reservoir may be the way to go... I am confused about the shaft length however... the article where the guy made his own adapter sandwich stated that the pump had to be spaced back 5/8" to put the pulley in the right place, but the 6244 Cardone has a lot more shaft sticking out past the bracket than the similar looking 6999 pump with no bracket. In the thread with the Astro van remote reservoir, the guy used the PSC horseshoe and said the shaft wasn't long enough. (It was 80-96 Ford van pump). He said the shaft went a little more than half way through. So which is it? Too long or too short? The F550 article gives no specific info, but Tom Lee's adapter looks a little thicker than the PSC horseshoe and there is no mention of shimming it. Lee knows his pumps and exactly which model to use. I know he would not have accepted a pulley being not all the way seated. My thinking is that I can get the adapter for $30, and a junkyard pump with the pulley for $28+$5 core. If it does not work I can even return it for credit. $63 invested is an amount I can live with. I need to buy the pulley tool, but that is something I should have anyway. That would be an easy solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 That would be an easy solution. From what I have seen, Saginaw pumps were made for specific applications, many on non-GM vehicles, I will have to dig out one of my K-car pumps and measure it for shaft length etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 From what I have seen, Saginaw pumps were made for specific applications, many on non-GM vehicles, I will have to dig out one of my K-car pumps and measure it for shaft length etc. I have to agree with Bill. Saginaw produced dozens of variants for multiple manufacturers, not just GM. So: canned ham, necked, single or dual return, different clocking for different mounts/engines. That's just the reservoir... I'm not sure of the difference between Ford serpentine and V-belt pulleys. Bore size, offset, whatever. Cardone may have been playing mix & match with existing Saginaw shafts. But obviously it has to end up in plane with the crank pulley, and be a tight fit in the pulley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have to agree with Bill. Saginaw produced dozens of variants for multiple manufacturers, not just GM. So: canned ham, necked, single or dual return, different clocking for different mounts/engines. That's just the reservoir... I'm not sure of the difference between Ford serpentine and V-belt pulleys. Bore size, offset, whatever. Cardone may have been playing mix & match with existing Saginaw shafts. But obviously it has to end up in plane with the crank pulley, and be a tight fit in the pulley. This is a bit off the topic perhaps, but I was looking around for a good puller and installer tool, and wondered if anyone had any recommendations or advice. I am looking at the "No-slip" Lisle 39000 which has a unique head that locks together with a threaded handle. It's a little less than $50. Seems good but I'm open to other input: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 This is a bit off the topic perhaps, but I was looking around for a good puller and installer tool, and wondered if anyone had any recommendations or advice. I am looking at the "No-slip" Lisle 39000 which has a unique head that locks together with a threaded handle. It's a little less than $50. Seems good but I'm open to other input: I have the OTC 4530: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000XSI96G/ref=oh_aui_i_sh_in_o1_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Seems to work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have the OTC 4530: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000XSI96G/ref=oh_aui_i_sh_in_o1_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Seems to work well. I have what looks like the exact same kit from Northern Tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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