Hydroboost Planning

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, remember the previous discussion concerning outlet fittings and flow control valves in Saginaw pumps, also the "ham can" can be swapped to build what you need. Just keep track of what you use.

Bill - I have to keep the outlet fitting (pressure union) as that's what mates with this hose. But looking at the exploded view, below, that doesn't appear to have anything to do with the pressure or flow.

Is it the control valve that determines the pressure? It may be directly behind the fitting.

So, are you saying I should swap the ham can, inc the fitting to the E-series pump?

[85lebaront2]

Bill - I have to keep the outlet fitting (pressure union) as that's what mates with this hose. But looking at the exploded view, below, that doesn't appear to have anything to do with the pressure or flow.

Is it the control valve that determines the pressure? It may be directly behind the fitting.

So, are you saying I should swap the ham can, inc the fitting to the E-series pump?

Gary, if I can find all the Saginaw pictures I took, the outlet fittings were different inside the pump as wel as the flow control valves. I think I remember finding some specifics on the pumps as far as pressure and flow. I would shoot for one that used a hydroboost unit, like my 1978 Delta 88 or my 1980 Bonneville Brougham. Maybe an E350 motorhome chassis.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, if I can find all the Saginaw pictures I took, the outlet fittings were different inside the pump as wel as the flow control valves. I think I remember finding some specifics on the pumps as far as pressure and flow. I would shoot for one that used a hydroboost unit, like my 1978 Delta 88 or my 1980 Bonneville Brougham. Maybe an E350 motorhome chassis.

I'm really just debating which of the two pumps to use. Or, if I need to swap parts from one to the other.

I have to keep the outlet fitting, but could put that in the E350's pump. That would then use the E350's flow control valve and spring. And, the stud for the brace would be there.

Actually, since I like the return's angle and location on the Lincoln's Sag I should just swap the reservoir covers. That keeps the internals the same but gives me the outlet fitting I need as well as the return I want.

Yes?

[85lebaront2]

I'm really just debating which of the two pumps to use. Or, if I need to swap parts from one to the other.

I have to keep the outlet fitting, but could put that in the E350's pump. That would then use the E350's flow control valve and spring. And, the stud for the brace would be there.

Actually, since I like the return's angle and location on the Lincoln's Sag I should just swap the reservoir covers. That keeps the internals the same but gives me the outlet fitting I need as well as the return I want.

Yes?

Sounds like a good option, biggest item would be if the combination gives you the pressure needed for the Hydroboost unit without losing the steering "feel" (too much pressure can give a "loose" feeling).

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds like a good option, biggest item would be if the combination gives you the pressure needed for the Hydroboost unit without losing the steering "feel" (too much pressure can give a "loose" feeling).

Well, the plot thickens. I've been doing some research and from what I can tell there were essentially two pressure settings used: ~850 psi for rack & pinion setups, and 1200 psi for all others.

But, I did find an article on Hemmings that details things fairly well. Here are some takeaways from that:

• Units built before 1975 had a 5/8-inch inside diameter slide-on pulley assembly that was held stationary by a keyway and shaft nut.

• Two versions were used after 1975, both used a pulley that was pressed onto a 3/4-inch shaft with no keyway. The first unit was used from 1975-’79 (and some 1980 cars) and can be distinguished by the USS threaded holes on the front of the pump for the mounting brackets

• All pumps used from 1963 to 1979 used a 5/8-inch-18 inverted flare nut on the end of the power steering hose. Most of the hoses used in these cars were built with 7/16-inch tubing ends crimped on them (7/16-inch tubing uses the 5/8-inch-18 flare nuts).

• Pumps used from 1980 to 1996 looked identical in outward appearance to the earlier units; however, the mounting holes on the face for mounting brackets were metric. Another way to determine the SAE unit from the metric pump is by the internal thread of the pressure valve retaining nut. The metric 1980-and-up units used a 16mm x 1.5 o-ring thread on the pressure hose. The newer versions also have an “X” cast into the mounting face of the pump and require a wider square-cut o-ring to be used on the reservoir mounting bolts or studs.

• Many different pressure valves were selected by manufacturers to match the gearbox setup, and the ratio they wanted to use. These valves screw into the back of the pump unit and are part of the retaining nut. A pressure spring is also located just behind this nut. When substituting between units, it is recommended whenever possible to use the original valve and spring out of your car, rather than from the donor car. This will ensure that the new pump assembly has the proper pressure for your gearbox. If you do not have the old valve for the pre-1975 units, there is a work-around to modify the pump to the correct pressure. If you remove the retaining nut and spring, some of the pressure valves have a threaded shaft with a nut on top with a series of washers. These washers help determine the pressure setting for the pump. Carefully hold the valve in a vise, without damaging the outer bore, and take off the nut. You can then change the number of washers. As you remove washers, the pressure setting of the valve (and pump) will increase. More washers equal less pressure. However, it should be noted that with less pressure, you would be able to get a better feel in the steering wheel for the condition of the road. Overdoing the pressure could also lead to early pump and/or gearbox failure, so don’t over-pressurize.

The above is consistent with what I've found on the mounting bolts and the pressure fittings.

But, with that info does it still seem like swapping the ham can is all that is needed? IOW, put the earlier ham can on the later pump, retaining the inverted flare fitting and the mounting stud, pressure valve and spring, etc?

 

[85lebaront2]

Well, the plot thickens. I've been doing some research and from what I can tell there were essentially two pressure settings used: ~850 psi for rack & pinion setups, and 1200 psi for all others.

But, I did find an article on Hemmings that details things fairly well. Here are some takeaways from that:

• Units built before 1975 had a 5/8-inch inside diameter slide-on pulley assembly that was held stationary by a keyway and shaft nut.

• Two versions were used after 1975, both used a pulley that was pressed onto a 3/4-inch shaft with no keyway. The first unit was used from 1975-’79 (and some 1980 cars) and can be distinguished by the USS threaded holes on the front of the pump for the mounting brackets

• All pumps used from 1963 to 1979 used a 5/8-inch-18 inverted flare nut on the end of the power steering hose. Most of the hoses used in these cars were built with 7/16-inch tubing ends crimped on them (7/16-inch tubing uses the 5/8-inch-18 flare nuts).

• Pumps used from 1980 to 1996 looked identical in outward appearance to the earlier units; however, the mounting holes on the face for mounting brackets were metric. Another way to determine the SAE unit from the metric pump is by the internal thread of the pressure valve retaining nut. The metric 1980-and-up units used a 16mm x 1.5 o-ring thread on the pressure hose. The newer versions also have an “X” cast into the mounting face of the pump and require a wider square-cut o-ring to be used on the reservoir mounting bolts or studs.

• Many different pressure valves were selected by manufacturers to match the gearbox setup, and the ratio they wanted to use. These valves screw into the back of the pump unit and are part of the retaining nut. A pressure spring is also located just behind this nut. When substituting between units, it is recommended whenever possible to use the original valve and spring out of your car, rather than from the donor car. This will ensure that the new pump assembly has the proper pressure for your gearbox. If you do not have the old valve for the pre-1975 units, there is a work-around to modify the pump to the correct pressure. If you remove the retaining nut and spring, some of the pressure valves have a threaded shaft with a nut on top with a series of washers. These washers help determine the pressure setting for the pump. Carefully hold the valve in a vise, without damaging the outer bore, and take off the nut. You can then change the number of washers. As you remove washers, the pressure setting of the valve (and pump) will increase. More washers equal less pressure. However, it should be noted that with less pressure, you would be able to get a better feel in the steering wheel for the condition of the road. Overdoing the pressure could also lead to early pump and/or gearbox failure, so don’t over-pressurize.

The above is consistent with what I've found on the mounting bolts and the pressure fittings.

But, with that info does it still seem like swapping the ham can is all that is needed? IOW, put the earlier ham can on the later pump, retaining the inverted flare fitting and the mounting stud, pressure valve and spring, etc?

Yes, as long as the fitting/valve are correct, and they should be, the cans are interchangeable.

I did find the E series 7.5L pump installation, I need to find one of those braces to use it on Darth.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, as long as the fitting/valve are correct, and they should be, the cans are interchangeable.

I did find the E series 7.5L pump installation, I need to find one of those braces to use it on Darth.

As I think about it, I'm not liking this approach. I want Big Blue to be maintainable, and that means my offspring should be able to buy parts off the shelf for it. And having them buy an E350 pump and swap the back off a Lincoln pump to it doesn't fit the theme.

However, all I need is to adapt 16mm x 1.5mm to inverted flare. One approach is to use an adaptor, similar to the one below, although that one is to 6AN and I'm not sure that's the same as the 5/8-inch-18 inverted flare. (Nor am I convinced that the Lincoln pump is 5/8". I thought it was 3/8".)

Another even simpler approach is to use one of these from someone like Speedway, which slips into the o-ring and presents the inverted flare:

That way I can use the E-350's pump and can replace it w/an off-the-shelf unit when needed.

Thoughts?

[85lebaront2]

As I think about it, I'm not liking this approach. I want Big Blue to be maintainable, and that means my offspring should be able to buy parts off the shelf for it. And having them buy an E350 pump and swap the back off a Lincoln pump to it doesn't fit the theme.

However, all I need is to adapt 16mm x 1.5mm to inverted flare. One approach is to use an adaptor, similar to the one below, although that one is to 6AN and I'm not sure that's the same as the 5/8-inch-18 inverted flare. (Nor am I convinced that the Lincoln pump is 5/8". I thought it was 3/8".)

Another even simpler approach is to use one of these from someone like Speedway, which slips into the o-ring and presents the inverted flare:

That way I can use the E-350's pump and can replace it w/an off-the-shelf unit when needed.

Thoughts?

Gary, AN is a 37° flare, SAE is 45° degree flare.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary, AN is a 37° flare, SAE is 45° degree flare.

We used to use little 'cups', I forget who made them.

Earl's, maybe?

[Gary Lewis]

We used to use little 'cups', I forget who made them.

Earl's, maybe?

Summit has these for $16.

But I'm drawn to this one from Dirty Dingo Motorsports via Amazon. Perhaps it is because they show the pic below. But I need to verify the fitting sizes as they don't give the metric size.

I'm liking the external ones as they are somewhat obvious when you lay a new pump beside the old one. But the internal one isn't as obvious. Anyway, this looks to be the better approach rather than modify the pumps.