Hydroboost Planning

[ArdWrknTrk]

Stainless, as long as it is 304 or 316 condition B, or some B16 all thread, that is a high temperature non-CRES alloy, and use a CRES nut and washer. That is what I used on my 390's right manifold where the air filter preheater attached. That will also give you the ability to space the bracket as needed, or remove the pump without taking the front bolt out of the header.

Now we need a PN for that so anyone else (like me) who does a Saginaw pump conversion can try to find one.

Bill - I'm not sure I understand what you said. The "non-CRES" bit of "or some B16 all thread, that is a high temperature non-CRES alloy" confused me. I think you are saying to use stainless but if I can't find a stainless all-thread to use a high-temp alloy and a stainless nut and washer. Is that right?

Similarly, you said "304 or 316 condition B". Are you saying 304 is good or 316 condition B? I ask because I didn't understand Condition B and I found this at Diversified Metals and it says Condition B is a variant of 304.

Jim - Are you saying I should ditch the whole set of L&L 12-points and go stainless the whole way? Did you use special bolts? 304? 316? Condition B?

I think they were 316, and they were passivated (or pickled)

Keep in mind that carriage bolts are threaded all the way.

You don't need to find allthread.

[Gary Lewis]

I think they were 316, and they were passivated (or pickled)

Keep in mind that carriage bolts are threaded all the way.

You don't need to find allthread.

Ok guys, school me on stainless. On the Fastenal site I get to this page which has one 3/8-16 selection, and it is 18-8.

I found several results via a Google search, but the one at Bosun seems most helpful. And it has this statement:

For severe environments. Of course, there are many industrial processes that require a higher level of resistance to corrosion than Type 304 can offer. For these applications, Type 316 is the answer. Type 316 is also austenitic, non-magnetic, and thermally nonhardenable stainless steel like Type 304.

Is that accurate? I need 316 and not 18-8? Am I missing it at Fastenal?

 

[85lebaront2]

Ok guys, school me on stainless. On the Fastenal site I get to this page which has one 3/8-16 selection, and it is 18-8.

I found several results via a Google search, but the one at Bosun seems most helpful. And it has this statement:

For severe environments. Of course, there are many industrial processes that require a higher level of resistance to corrosion than Type 304 can offer. For these applications, Type 316 is the answer. Type 316 is also austenitic, non-magnetic, and thermally nonhardenable stainless steel like Type 304.

Is that accurate? I need 316 and not 18-8? Am I missing it at Fastenal?

18-8 is 304, 18% chromium, 8% nickel, 316 has molybdenum as an added measurable percentage. As it says, it has a higher level of corrosion resistance than 304. Biggest issue with 304 in heating and cooling environments is chloride stress corrosion, salt from roads + water will get in and essentially etch part of the alloy until the bolt will crack, usually at the head to shank location.

The reason I used B7 all thread was availability, I could easily grab a short piece of scrap at work and unlike the harder bolt materials, Gr5 or Gr8, it is not as brittle and it's strength lies between the 2. It is a high temperature rated material, so will not soften as easily. On headers, it may not matter as much, but I was using it on factory cast iron manifolds on my 390. As far as I know it was probably originally used for joints in the Navy 1200 lb steam systems.

[Gary Lewis]

18-8 is 304, 18% chromium, 8% nickel, 316 has molybdenum as an added measurable percentage. As it says, it has a higher level of corrosion resistance than 304. Biggest issue with 304 in heating and cooling environments is chloride stress corrosion, salt from roads + water will get in and essentially etch part of the alloy until the bolt will crack, usually at the head to shank location.

The reason I used B7 all thread was availability, I could easily grab a short piece of scrap at work and unlike the harder bolt materials, Gr5 or Gr8, it is not as brittle and it's strength lies between the 2. It is a high temperature rated material, so will not soften as easily. On headers, it may not matter as much, but I was using it on factory cast iron manifolds on my 390. As far as I know it was probably originally used for joints in the Navy 1200 lb steam systems.

Thanks, Bill. But are you saying that 304 (18-8) would work on headers? Or do I need to find 316? And passivated 316 at that? By the way, shouldn't I move this discussion to the Big Blue's Transformation thread?

And, back to hydroboost, the new Superduty Sag pump/hydroboost line came in today. In the morn I'll put it in place and mark the top side of the hose/fitting and ensure I have good pics of the arrangement. Then we are headed to town and I'll visit Ameriflex and, hopefully, get a fitting crimped on.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thanks, Bill. But are you saying that 304 (18-8) would work on headers? Or do I need to find 316? And passivated 316 at that? By the way, shouldn't I move this discussion to the Big Blue's Transformation thread?

And, back to hydroboost, the new Superduty Sag pump/hydroboost line came in today. In the morn I'll put it in place and mark the top side of the hose/fitting and ensure I have good pics of the arrangement. Then we are headed to town and I'll visit Ameriflex and, hopefully, get a fitting crimped on.

Be SURE to use plenty of your favorite silver slime if you put stainless on (in?) stainless!

If not, you might not even get it tight before it becomes one.

[Gary Lewis]

Be SURE to use plenty of your favorite silver slime if you put stainless on (in?) stainless!

If not, you might not even get it tight before it becomes one.

I'll be sure to use plenty of my favorite uckumpucky.

[Gary Lewis]

I'll be sure to use plenty of my favorite uckumpucky.

The good news is that I have a hose that fits from the Sag output fitting to the hydroboost's input fitting. The less-than-good news is that it fits the Sag that was intended for Dad's truck.

So, I'm going to ask a couple of questions up front and then get into a long dialog about how this transpired.

First, the Sag that works is the one Kyle/First Today got for me from a '77 - 79 Lincoln Town Car w/a 400. It is completely rebuilt and ready to go. The other Sag is the one Jonathan got me from an E350. It was working, so isn't rebuilt and probably doesn't need it.

Q1: Is there any reason why one Saginaw pump is better than the other?

Q2: If not and I use the Lincoln Sag then is there a reason to add the brace fitting in back?

And now for the background. I went to Ameriflex, but as I got there Brandon/Bruno2 said "Kims International is a better option. Nathan down there is pretty good with hoses. That is where I get all of mine made." Well, I was at Ameriflex and Janey was waiting on me, so I went on in.

Turns out the van Sag uses a "14MM bump tube" fitting and all they could do for me was to sell me a fitting that converted that to JIC #6 and then use a hose fitting. But my hose wasn't going to be long enough, and anyway that would have had the hose running right at the back of the pump, placing it near the exhaust, instead of over near the fender liner as far as it can get from the exhaust.

However, they could put the flared fitting that I showed in previous posts onto my hose and it would fit the Lincoln Sag. So we went that way, and it fits nicely. The flared fitting they grafted on is on the left, and on the right you can see the new hose with it grafted on, and you can also see the old hose and the fitting that was cut off the new hose.

Here's an overall view of how it all goes together using the Lincoln Sag. If there is nothing in the way as it all goes together I'll massage the bend out of the hose from the Sag to the booster, which is the one on the left at the firewall, and keep it closer to the other two hoses.

And here is a shot from above showing the routing at the back of the pump, inc where the tee will go in the return:

And now for shots of the two pumps - and I think you can tell which has been rebuilt and powder coated. But, a few things to point out. First, the mounting bolts are different, with the Lincoln pump having 3/8-16 bolts and the SD pump having 10 x 1.5MM bolts. Second, the return tubes are at different points and angles, and the one on the Lincoln pump has a better angle and location to use the SD return line. Last, the Lincoln pump doesn't have the brace stud, but has a bolt there, so it is possible that I could put the stud on there. But I'd bet it is metric and would need to be SAE.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The good news is that I have a hose that fits from the Sag output fitting to the hydroboost's input fitting. The less-than-good news is that it fits the Sag that was intended for Dad's truck.

So, I'm going to ask a couple of questions up front and then get into a long dialog about how this transpired.

First, the Sag that works is the one Kyle/First Today got for me from a '77 - 79 Lincoln Town Car w/a 400. It is completely rebuilt and ready to go. The other Sag is the one Jonathan got me from an E350. It was working, so isn't rebuilt and probably doesn't need it.

Q1: Is there any reason why one Saginaw pump is better than the other?

Q2: If not and I use the Lincoln Sag then is there a reason to add the brace fitting in back?

And now for the background. I went to Ameriflex, but as I got there Brandon/Bruno2 said "Kims International is a better option. Nathan down there is pretty good with hoses. That is where I get all of mine made." Well, I was at Ameriflex and Janey was waiting on me, so I went on in.

Turns out the van Sag uses a "14MM bump tube" fitting and all they could do for me was to sell me a fitting that converted that to JIC #6 and then use a hose fitting. But my hose wasn't going to be long enough, and anyway that would have had the hose running right at the back of the pump, placing it near the exhaust, instead of over near the fender liner as far as it can get from the exhaust.

However, they could put the flared fitting that I showed in previous posts onto my hose and it would fit the Lincoln Sag. So we went that way, and it fits nicely. The flared fitting they grafted on is on the left, and on the right you can see the new hose with it grafted on, and you can also see the old hose and the fitting that was cut off the new hose.

Here's an overall view of how it all goes together using the Lincoln Sag. If there is nothing in the way as it all goes together I'll massage the bend out of the hose from the Sag to the booster, which is the one on the left at the firewall, and keep it closer to the other two hoses.

And here is a shot from above showing the routing at the back of the pump, inc where the tee will go in the return:

And now for shots of the two pumps - and I think you can tell which has been rebuilt and powder coated. But, a few things to point out. First, the mounting bolts are different, with the Lincoln pump having 3/8-16 bolts and the SD pump having 10 x 1.5MM bolts. Second, the return tubes are at different points and angles, and the one on the Lincoln pump has a better angle and location to use the SD return line. Last, the Lincoln pump doesn't have the brace stud, but has a bolt there, so it is possible that I could put the stud on there. But I'd bet it is metric and would need to be SAE.

Gary, I'm pretty certain the 450 had a C2 pump.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, I'm pretty certain the 450 had a C2 pump.

Absolutely!

Jonathan got me that Sag out of an E-Series van. I've changed the post to reflect that, I hope. My bad. Thanks!

[85lebaront2]

Gary, I'm pretty certain the 450 had a C2 pump.

Absolutely!

Jonathan got me that Sag out of an E-Series van. I've changed the post to reflect that, I hope. My bad. Thanks!

Gary, remember the previous discussion concerning outlet fittings and flow control valves in Saginaw pumps, also the "ham can" can be swapped to build what you need. Just keep track of what you use.